AnimeNfo

[Kaj (#32327)]

[charn (#40191)]

[Kaj (#32327)]

lol so would I

[Rosepetals (#42525)]

[Kaj (#32327)]

I should probably review some of my old ones too lol. But to do that I need to rewatch them

[penguin (#66946)]

.

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

Luc/Nyuu

[Caddberry (#27690)]

You know .. I thought about how Thomas said that Kouta's reaction when he found out Lucy killed his family was weak.. Here's what I think.. Or how you could possibly explain it..

First off.. yeah it was horrible.. It was a horrible thing, but it happened long ago.. So he had time to get over it.. I think he really cared for Nyuu.. He knew she was messed up in the head .. I think why he held her was because he knew Nyuu really wasnt responsible.. I can't really recall the details .. damn my brain..

I dont think that really its all that unbelieveable.. He could have hated her yes.. but thats not who he is.. Just like when he got strangled by her on the bus.. He didnt have a snap reaction more of a .. sedate one..

He is a forgiving person.. He is a caring person.. I think he held her not necessarily for her sake, but also for his.. I think at that moment he just needed a physical being close to him.

I'd have to watch it again to see the scenes again, but really.. The reaction isnt TOTALLY unbelieveable.. It's who he is..

[Kaj (#32327)]

Considering his character, no it wasn't a totally unbelievable reaction. But, it's the character that's the root of the problem. The character that led this reaction is unbelievable. A character who is dominated by "nice" characteristic that overrides all normal human characteristics. Also I'm not convinced about the "he had time to get over it" argument because it's not like he spent years "getting over it" - since he's lost his memory he has NOT been facing this issue. To get over something implies facing it, confronting it and getting over it.

[Rosepetals (#42525)]

I don't know how everyone feels about doing this, but I have a suggestion for moving along this debate in a different direction. It might be better, and less cumbersome in terms of the length of the posts, if we take sections of Elfen Lied (characters, plot, music, etc.) and debate about them accordingly, moving along once we finish with a particular aspect, and people can add in and read as we move along. That doesn't mean that our argument can be more objective than subjective, but it gives a little more organization to our train of thoughts and perhaps give more clarity to each of our arguments.

With respect for characters, for example, we can start with Kouta.

Kouta's one of the primary characters (if not the main one, one could debate that Elfen Lied really revolves around Lucy/Nyuu). He seems to be a humble guy, I didn't think he was a "wooden box" as Tammo and Pantha suggested. He had emotions, think about how he cried when he was separated from Nyuu, one could almost argue he was being too emotional then. At the same time, I wonder if there's a part of Kouta that's going through the stages of grief, a human characteristic. A lot of what I saw in his character was just utter and complete denial...he would be upset one moment and the next he would be fine. It's almost as if he were telling himself it wasn't real.

Remember the episode (can't remember off the top of my head) when he completely freaked out finding his professor dead in the lab, not to mention that his "sensei" had horns like Lucy/Nyuu? He was that way one moment, and the next he was fine...I don't think he accepted it; it was more like he pushed it out of his thoughts and didn't want to believe it....like the fact he didn't want to recognize the fact that his family was dead and that Lucy had killed them. Perhaps that was his way of coping. Unrealistic, perhaps, in terms of what we ourselves would do, yes, but not inhuman.

If you think that's a bad idea, you can ignore what I posted above...

[Kaj (#32327)]

First of all... I CLAIM THE 100TH POST! WOOHOO!!!

Rosepetal, I think your ideas would have been good if it was proposed at the beginning of the argument. Unfortunately, as this debate is now getting rather stale, I wonder if there's any point making the effort to structure the remainder of it, which seem to consist of 2 posts per week and dropping steadily.

On your subject of Kouta, I'm afraid I don't see it the way you do. The way I see it is kind of hard to explain, but hopefully I can get my meaning across. You mention that Kouta seem to have this denial characteristic because of the way he gets upset in one moment then would be alright in the next. But to me those feels like wooden character designs. Why? Because it seems to be that people just get over things way too easily in this anime. The way Mayu seems unaffected by her background and surroundings, the way they get over they get over the hearing Nyu suddenly talk so easily etc. It's like they only took into consideration the immediate short term effect of events most of the time when they were thinking about the characters. It's another aspect of the under-reaction of the characters that I was mentioning.

[Rosepetals (#42525)]

Yes, you're right....well, can't blame me for trying I'll leave it to the people who want to debate it further from here on out.

[Kaj (#32327)]

when even tammo doesn't post here anymore you can just tell it's pretty much over

[charn (#40191)]

Yeah, what a shame. the Elfen lied thread is not even half as lively when Thomas is not around.. maybe he is deeply hurt coz someone here hurt his feelings..

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

THAT HURT MY FEELINGS!!

[CyBeR (#47560)]

What the Heck? Did I miss the entire thing? Why didn't someone inform me there was a debate here?...seriously... you people.

I did not read everything...I admit...just read a few lines through the posts and the last one..quite a lot of opinions(eye murderer).

My opinions on this anime:

1. The characters were a colorful bunch I must admit, taking some of the most idiotic attitudes posible in face of some circumstances. I hated the fact that everything was based on a good will, despite the dificulties they were facing on their own...that boy took everyine in without thinking about his problems. That is a sign of complete idiocy and lack of economic sense.
To that I add the fact that there are some completely illogical decisions that simply baffle me...I can't understand them.
It's like you have a brick in your backpack and you carry it around like a fool: at one point you stop and take out the brick and hit yourself in the head with it instead of throwing it away...that's just how illogical the caracters can be.
The only character that made some sense was Lucy...she had power and she used it since she was a child...she could kill without any remorse...why shouldn't she use that power?

2. The story is a bit over the marker of "inexistent" in my opinion. Apart from some scenes which I really enjoyed in the anime like Lucy's childhood or that orphans past, the story revolving around the present time for the character is poor, very very poor. It leaves so many gaps in the storyline that it can almost compile a whole volume of questions...nothing is said in a concrete manner so it preatty frustrating.

3. The violence: to be quite honest I wasn't shoked by the violence or nudity in this anime, no matter how gorry it was...I've seen worse cases in anime(even in one hentai of which I was just curious...I'l post pic at the end of the post). The violence is not always necesary but it is represented pretty well. Since Thomas said almost everything there was to say on this subject above, I really do agree with his opinon and his examples.

4. Now comes the funny part: I enjoyed Elfen Lied...it wasn't because of the romantic element, the gore, the nudity. I even chose to turn a blind eye to the painfully obvious flaws of this anime. I was just pleasently surprised by some seeds of excellent directing in the anime...it was a series that actually got me angry at some points and I wished for the death of some characters(ex: the boys that killed the pooch). EL has some feeling to it which is actually enjoyable, at least in my case... I couldn't just scrape this anime as rubbish but it didn't climb in my top 20 either.

[charn (#40191)]

oh why no one loves this crud like me ???

[CyBeR (#47560)]

I didn't say I disliked the anime...I actually enjoyed it for some sadistic reason...
I have a way of watching anime: I don't realise the technical parts until I finish seeing the anime...I couldn't care less about some elements so it's easy for me to enjoy an anime...that's what keeps me in the business!

I guess I forgot about that photo that actually shocked me...it's extremely violent and that was what I could consider completely tasteless and pointless violence in an anime.

Here it is:

[Kaj (#32327)]

charn... there are plenty of people who "loves this crud" lol. But they just vote then disappear =) Maybe this is the sign that an anime is popular but not as good objectively.

I have noticed recently that I'm not enjoying anime as much as I used to though :/ I blame it on review writing. I used to just watch the anime and think about it afterwards. Now I think about it during the anime and that interferes with the watching

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

Welcome Here Cyber!! And gogogogogogo! Good post.



Charn - there will be more EL realistic viewers ;-P

And what Kaj said is true also - EL is not good to support it in the Debate - it's as Thalan said - he wnated to participated but I crushed EVERY argument he could muster even before he began - he likes El still but at least he knows it for what it is.

And about enjoyument
With me it is the same Kaj - I rarely see anime I burn nowadays - but I saw recently Crest and Banner and I was glad and happy
plus
there will be things to see like Berserk finale (15 eps and later) and Fushiigi Yuugi and others - I can still find good anime luckily

[Rosepetals (#42525)]

[Joshua (#55329)]

Thomas I love your argument you bring up alot of good points as far as what an anime should be as far as a text book would want and I think that's good. The characters are unrealistic and with the character being unrealistic the plot is damaged.

I think elfen Lied is crazy!! so crazy to the point were it is great and unique wouldn't you say. Elfen Lied does take somethings from other series but if you think about it it takes those things and do them in such an obscure way. Elfen Lied's is crazy and wild but that is what makes it unique. Enjoying something also does amount to the woth of a series as well and I truly enjoyed along with so many others.

Elfen Lied creates atmosphere and the character were interesting enough to were I wanted to know what was going on with them.

Thomas I ask you do you hate the characters of Elfen Lied or have negative feelings toward the characters?

If the answer is Yes

Then what do you think about this statement, " If you felt nothing for the characters then the characters would really be pathetic but if you if feelings arise whether they are negative or positive then they are doing their job". There have been series when I feel nothing for the charcters and that is the worst kind.

The story is fine to me. To me their was really one unanswered was what was the deal with the male diclonious, On the last episode the leader of that company or whatever was on the phone with someone to speak of their next step and strategy about the diclonious project but that was more of a foreshadow.

To me the nudity and violence regardless of how it wasn't needed in your opinion doesn't hurt the series to me. I think the violence was needed in Elfen Lied to build Lucy and Nyu's character and yet again to create an atmosphere. The Nudity for some parts was needed as well like for the first episode. and although Nyu was developed as a woman she had the mind of a child a baby you can say and they see nothing wrong with nudity because they are innocent as Nyu is. Their is nothing ecchi about the nudity. I thought the nudity scenes were sometimes funny, or artistic. In Mayu's case it was tragic with her father.

Elfen Lied is daring and innovative because it is breaking the rules and isn't confined to that book of anime making rules and guidelines. LOL

Elfen Lied is a piece of fine artwork.

Thomas I am really enjoying this debate because you do bring up true points from a perspective that I understand but don't neccesarily agree with to some degree. I guess I see what you see but I don't see all those things as negatives but positives in some cases. I do respect the fact that you are sticking to your guns although alot of people disagree with you because my opinions are mine regardless if alot of people agree or not.

Thomas if you have a conter to the things I set up then bring it on.
And if you want a debate about the other animes that I have seen please send me an invite because I will attend.

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

Reply for Joshua

[Last Exile (#35342)]

Thomas, you've missed the point of the series!

There were two.

They were not the origins of the diclonius or taking over the world or whatever. They were side issues.

The two core issues of the series were:

1. The abuse of children is wrong.
2. Lucy needed to apologise to Kouta for the pain she caused him in order to move in.

That is the point of the series. Don't look any further than that.

[Kaj (#32327)]

Hmmmm there's something decidedly dodgy about that view. If the abuse of children and apologising for doing wrong is the only points of the series, what's the point of having this diclonuseseses theme at all? Could have gotten those points across better, clearer in a down to earth soap drama thing instead of wrapping it all up in this fancy sci fi idea that's incomplete.

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

For Last Exile

[Last Exile (#35342)]

What males? The only two male diclonia we ever saw were the Head Director and his son.

It's not meant to be some great big conspiracy story! It's a tale! And honestly, you can't name many animes that wrap up all the issues when they introduce new material. Evangelion left plenty of questions, as did Witch Hunter Robin, Saikano, FLCL, Chrono Crusade, etc.

If you read interviews, many directors like to leave some issues unresolved. They intentionally do it. So get used to it, it'll happen a lot more as time goes on. Heck, the people responsible for Cowboy Bebop say even they're not sure whether Spike was killed or not in the last episode of Cowboy Bebop!

Stop thinking of Lucy as a creature and start thinking of her as a person. That's what she is.

That would be the third point of the series.

And that's I'll I'm saying because anything said in this topic is like talking to a brick wall.

[CyBeR (#47560)]

Your posts are eye killers!

I'm kinda against Last Exile's view. A series does have a core or two on which it revolves but at the same time that/those core/s must be exploited and be made the key elements in the series so that the point may be taken. But that doesn't happen in EL...the plot is twisted in a way that actually goes away from the original idea. As such, the complications arise and that almost completely turns the attention from the message it was supposed to transmit.
The fact that the characters and story are made in such a "unique" way doesn't help and the answers which are not given only add to the distractions. Even though there are more and more anime that have such open endings, that is annoying...you are left baffled by the action and cannot make heads or tales of the series.

Here's a question:
Why were the male diclonius bald when the females had trademark pink hair?

There are a lot of unanswered facts that just leads you away from whatever the anime was supposed to say...

Thomas: Are you posting in the forums dedicated to those anime? If so I really must take a look!

[Kaj (#32327)]

Yes, there are other animes that wrap their messages up like that. But the difference is, I don't believe that those messages are the ONLY point of the anime whereas you're arguing that BECAUSE elfen lied has a couple of "morals of the story" THEREFORE nothing else matters There are open endings, I mean, Elfen Lied had an open ending, but that's not what's bothering me. There is a difference between issues left unresolved to leave to the viewer to interpret and issues that they just didn't think through properly. The latter is a flaw, and Elfen Lied definitely smells like the latter to me. In fact even Last Exile (the anime, not the user), one of my favourites is also guilty of an incomplete plot, and Elfen Lied is far less complete than LE. Like the introduction of the male diclonuses into the anime seem downright random without a more detailed explanation.

[Silent Blue (#71774)]

Message 4 the blind

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

Hello there.

One after another I will try to address what You said before.

@Last Exile

You say we see only two male dicloniuses. That is true. However also is true that we see only FOUR female ones. Not a big difference. And while male ones got influence and power, high position in society etc. female ones are lab rats, hunted, experimented upon and so on. I would say that males have it better.

All the anime You named have indeed similar flaws. And I also do not rate them high (with the possible except of Saikano - I stopped watching when I got a warning about 'happiness') - what of all people here You certainly know after our unfortunate debate on Chrno Crusade.

What You said about leaving issues unfinished. Yes - that is a fair point and I agree. The similar answer here is like in Joshua's case on originality. There is a difference on leaving 30% issues unresolved resolving remaining 70%, than the other way around (30% resolved, rest unresolved). And while I believe EL belongs to the second cathegory, and that it is a flaw, You think it is not important.

[Kaj (#32327)]

lol @Tammo I don't mind being missed out Amongst such long posts it's easy to miss my short one Good to you be so thorough and address everyone lol.

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

HA! I said it will be a good try! Kaj does not mind!

Now I know my miracles limit is spent. Good to know that, too.

[Tritonus (#1494)]

Re: Elfen Debate! great anime or just piece of crud?(spoiler

[Kaj (#32327)]

Re: Elfen Debate! great anime or just piece of crud?(spoiler

[Silent Blue (#71774)]

Thank you for your prompt response.

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

Re: Elfen Debate! great anime or just piece of crud?(spoiler

[Rosepetals (#42525)]

<claps hands> it's nice to see that this debate is really picking up again. Unfortunately, this time around I'm more on the sidelines because of a busy schedule but I'll try to contribute when I can. I'll apologize for the long post ahead of time

@Tritonus; Welcome to the debate,glad to see that you liked Elfen Lied (I really liked it as well). I agree with Kaj that Lucy/Nyuu had murdered before she found out that Kouta lied to her.

Yes, I also think that Elfen Lied is a piece of art, but I think it's difficult for a lot of people to see, and it does contain some major flaws, but that never deterred me from liking the series. Be mindful of Thomas'(Tammo) assertions, though, he can present some strong counterarguments in terms of your claims, I warn you ahead of time. LOL You'll have to defend your love for Elfen Lied against him and others who don't feel that the series was adequate enough.

@ Silent Blue, welcome to the debate as well...don't let the critique ward you off...this debate is all in fun I hope to see you more often

@ Joshua <claps> You made almost the same argument I made early on in the debate, with regards to the empathetic/sympathetic impression one may have with an anime. And I liked reading your statement, very informative.

@ Tammo

I have a few counterarguments for you.....

[Kaj (#32327)]

Very good argument Rosepetal, you almost convinced me. Then I thought about just what I found was so unconvincing about Mayu and I think I know just what was bothering me about your argument.

I think the most damnable evidence of Mayu not being like a homeless girl was that UNTIL IT WAS EXPLICITLY MENTIONED IN THE ANIME, I DIDN'T REALISE THAT SHE WAS HOMELESS. Correct me if I'm wrong, as my memory is hazy, but isn't pretty much all that you mentioned about the suffering of Mayu happened IN HER BACKGROUND STORY? The point I'm making is that when the background story is over, her suffering ends abruptly. The things she went through had no impact on her once it was over. The current Mayu that we seems so normal that I was able to forget her background. The memory of the owner of the dog calling her dirty made me want to giggle, because from what I remember, she didn't seem dirty at all, she seemed squeeky clean, that's why I didn't realise she was homeless. The character seemed to be designed to be cute and loveable rather than to have depth. I sympathised with Mayu when I was watching the background story. But by the end of it, I'd totally forgotten about it. It was just another incident that wasn't fully integrated into the anime. Looking back on it, it was the ease that the anime made me forget that, in my mind, failed Mayu as a strong character.

[Rosepetals (#42525)]

[Kaj (#32327)]

[dirty (#71854)]

Hi all

After a quick perusal of this Elfen Lied intellectual discussion I have elected my own participation,,,

[Silent Blue (#71774)]

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

The trap is set!

[Kaj (#32327)]