AnimeNfo

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

DAMN SURE I WILL!!

PFFFT. :P

I'm wrong?? Damn, that's INSOLENCE!!

*rises his chin skyhigh and bypasses Cadd without any word whatsoever. AND HE DOESN'T SLIP ON HIS WAY :P*



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@Ross and Slippy

I very much liked Your (anything but) 'little' discussion. I also liked it I think because I GUESSED where it would be heading. :D

After first few episodes the show IS full of promise... and it fails GREATLY when it's delivery time. I understand You quite a bit I must say. Not until later parts of the series may initial 'not so bad' impression dimmed as well.

As for Monster - I definitely AM going to see the rest of the show. First 26 episodes has made TREMENDOUS impact on me, tremendous indeed.
Thansk for You insight on it anyway!


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@Afrofish

You see, there is one tiny thing with Your diamond analogy.
To make diamond greater it's true You often have to cut it. Yet when You smash it it rarely gains on value. :P

'The flawed diamond' as You so poetically put it is sth that has great advantages and less then few LITTLE flaws, or one bigger flaw. Elfen Lied doesn't fit the description. It flaws are considerable, and if we take into consideration what we were promised when watching... No diamond. Dust.

@Caddberry

Seems You have seen ISIB and You still are stubborn. *winks and smiles*

Thing is that while Sara suffers, Mayu does not.
While Sara *IS* changed by experience, Mayu is not.

BEFORE You jump to hasty conclusions here, like someone before did, some pages earlier, let me explain:

Mayu past is clearly manipulative. Why? Because had it NOT happened to her she would have acted the same. Let's assume for the sake of brevity that she lost her home in some other circumstances. That she somehow landed on a street only with thils little pup as her companion. Does anything else changes (except this little flashback that took around a minute of screen time)? No.

She happens to meet Bando, Kouta, she happens to see Nana and Lucy fighting, she happens to later befriend Nana... NOTHING CHANGES.

So, tell me, WHY is she given so GRAVE past? It's terrible, horrid experience who doesn't leave a TRACE on her. Except that it's a reason to leave home.

And while we're on characters and You seem to be particularly hard to convince those are bad in Elfen Lied care to refresh my memory on what stand You took regarding BANDO? :P
*smiles crookedly*

Good luck with that one Cadd. Good luck with that.


*on a side: I'm wrong? I'm wrong?! I'll show You whose wrong mababy!* ;-) ;-D

[Kaj (#32327)]

\o/ there he goes again \o/

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

I couldn't dissapoint You Kaj. :-P :-)

[Kaj (#32327)]

lol I think I better stop reading this read... seems like spoilers from other anime are creeping in every where :shock:

[Caddberry (#27690)]

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

Sara vs Mayu

Sara suffers because of molestation. Mayu isn't shown suffering because of it. She is suffering (a bit) from hunger and loneliness. Rest - You may GUESS she is suffering - Your being sure of it Cadd is really based on human assumption - she must suffer because of it, that was terrible, everyone would suffer.

Sara's decisions and life afterwards are heavily burdened by her experience. We see it. We know it. We see how she struggles with it. Her decisions are related to it, her words and actions are influenced by it.

In Mayu's case we don't have anything. Some of her actions are influenced by her being shy, by her being lonely or by her being 'a good cheerful girl, a bit shy'.

At one point Mayu is shown suffering. It's the episode when all is revealed (to us, because to no one else). She is shown suffering of loneliness and hunger. Her puppy is away, and on her birthday she's alone. Then a flashback arrives and we get to know WHY. That is all to it. Had the flashback provide different explanation (accident with thrauma or amnesia or whatever) results would have been the same.

ISIB is not about Sara. She also plays little role there. Main plot is almost unaffected by her, yet she's magnificent character. And Mayu? You say that she is introverted and thus we get to see nothing of her so 'dramatically' like we did in Sara's case. I say bullshit.

Trigun: Wolfwood was introvertic. We happened to see loads of him.
Bebop: Spike, Jet and Faye were introvertic.
Shingetsutan Tsukihime: Ciel is introvertic.

I can go on and on - those are very top of iceberg. And before You start comparing, read this: THOSE ARE NOT EXAMPLES FOR COMPARISON. Those are examples to show You, that there are loads and myriads of ways in which You can provide insight on introvertic characters. Introvertic means that character won't blabber about it, won't be easy to confess to someone, or to show what troubles him/her. It doesn't mean the charater will not think about it, will not be affected and all that. In EL they did not care to show You any of it. You say it's because Mayu's side character. I say again bullshit. While side chars are not that important to develop them as fully as main ones, they still are crappy if they do not fulfill their promises. Mayu's case is prime example. She is like dropped tune in music. Like making a piece and making there a melody for one instrument and than cancelling it after few first tunes. That's stupid and un-professional. It's like promising sth and never delivering. Giving side character a grave and heavy past that practically screams in Your face with - THERE WILL BE MORE and never really delivering it.

It's manipulative, it's lying, it's crappy, it's stupid.


And I do not assume she would have acted the same. I can precisely tell You other reason in which she would have acted the same. I really was surprised when I realized that Mayu's grave past is for nothing. It's totally unused. Totally.

[Caddberry (#27690)]

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

Cadd - than there is no point disputing EL further. :-)

You don't recall enough of it, and I don't intend to force You to remembering it for the sake of this argument. :-)

Bando was for me first warning sign that EL has crappy characters. He's insane commando, that is put there for gore factor and to enable some violence. Blah. Nothing really to write about.

Instead of discussing here ISIB, I'd like You to read this thread, where I did some comparison on Mayu and Abelia.

It might provide some insight into why I deem Mayu's past totally manipulative and nothing more.

[Caddberry (#27690)]

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

Cadd... with all warm feelings that I have for You I can't stop laughing at You now... :D:D:D Sorry...

LoL


You see, Bando is a trademark of how bad characters in EL can get.
I don't doubt that You can make an intelligent conversation, really (I do but I'll have to gather a lot more courage to tell You that just like that in Your face *starts running* ;-D).

Well, You WERE using that phrase quite a bit, so I actually thought You weren't sure about how it really was in EL, and thus I wanted to give You the opportunity to back up. :-)

Seems You took it quite the other way around. ^-^

And in the other thread (the one about Abelia) I wrote a bit on why I think Mayu is a character that serves as a mere plot device with badly thrown in past o to get You convinced she is more than what she is by making You symphatize.

Well than, instead of being gentle then, which seems to be a failure, I'll ask straight: How much of EL You DO remember?

And do You feel confident about it so to discuss it?

LoL that's a funny twist in discussion, I didn't saw that one coming. :D

[Caddberry (#27690)]

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

How I wanted You to take it?
EASY... LoL

Seriously, I meant it just like I wrote in my previous post. Seemed to me You didn't really remembered thus I wanted to give You opportunity to end it.

Since You ARE IN for a continuation.... *deadly shining in the eyes*

My problems with Mayu are several.
- her past is totally unused ('untapped' like You wrote - same thing)
- she is manipulative and a plot device
- she doesn't act accordingly to her circumstances

But all that is just one of many claims I have against Elfen Lied characters in general. Rallying point is Bando - thus my mention of him earlier. If we were to discuss EL chars Bando is a sure start. :-)

Now onto Mayu, before You will start again that I ignore You ( starts mumbling on the side: How could I? I would have miserable life, You and Stick would have chased me and beat me and make me work even harder and for free... wait... I AM working for free.. damn, gotta work up on that storm of excuses so that actually someone would BUY them...). :D:D ;-)

We already agreed that Mayu is NOT a central point of anime. We agreed that her past isn't affecting the show in reality. Now tell me Cadd this:

WHY did she got such past in the first place?
WHAT creators wanted to achieve by doing that?

That is HEAVY STUFF Cadd. Why did they brought in such cannon? To idly stand there?

You were saying that we do not need to be spoon-fed with information. On the other hand You were saying that had Mayu's circumstances differ, she would reacted differently, but we wouldn't necessarily be shown it, since she isn't the main girl. And tell me - where does it lead?

We have A SIDE CHARACTER. Equipped with GRAVE PAST that is USELESS in the whole show. She isn't show anyhow affected - her being introverted isn't really true, I'll show it soon.

For now, I'll deal with one side issue - Cadd - I never implied that it's bullshit NOT to show any reaction of a molesting past.

But Mayu is ANIME character. And we are the viewers. If we aren't shown her reaction than it doesn't mean that she is having them for sure, but we just don't get to see them. It doesn't work that way - THAT is what I'm implying.

I got a strong impression that You are CONFIDENT she MUST have those reactions and we just happened not to see them cause she hidden them. While IRL it's all fine and dandy (so to speak) in this case it's bullshit.

Back on track - in psychology 'introvert' is one who concentrates one's interests upon oneself.

Were Mayu introverted she wouldn't be as curious as she was. Running to break a fight of two dicloniuses? Helping out Bando when he's in those conditions? Or searching around for Lucy cause she seems to be in danger? Naah.

My quarrel with Mayu once more is that she isn't shown reacting in ANY way after being so 'heavily equipped' by creators - why did they do it?

It's TOO huge cannon IMO to be left alone like it was.

As for omniscience of a viewer - I was implying that she is given enough screentime to be shown affected by her own backstory - and she isn't.
And with our little 'guess what happened to her if there wasn't any flashback' I wanted to show You, that we cannot really say from her behavior what happened. Ergo - her behavior doesn't show any effects. Nor do her actions, or words or thoughts. It's like it didn't happen.
IF IT WOULDN'T BE SHOWN show would have remained the same, so what's the point in showing it? None at all... except tricking You into liking her. And that's what I dislike - it's like lame person playing on Your subconscious guilt and getting money from You.


yes, Mayu did served her role - as a plot device and a point that EL is 'deep' stuff. It's supposed to be deep because there is child abuse. Like hell it is. There is a scene that brings nothing, shows nothing and that's deep?

[Caddberry (#27690)]

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

[Caddberry (#27690)]

I'm going to try to end this discussion with no quotes.. And with as little actual text as possible to try and be as concise as possible.

You are seeing the Mayu's backstory as cheap.. Meaning that you think it's lame that they don't 'show' you any of her emotions.

I'm saying it's not necessary because it's a reaction that is very possible, and in that reaction there honestly is no emotion that we see.

You are saying that they can't portray Mayu the way they do because they 'have' to show something solid to the viewers because she isn't a real life person..

I don't follow that line of thought. There are no rules that say they have to show anything, or that they are bound, unable to use real life situations or problems.

Really, by them doing what they did with mayu (having her react like a real little girl might have) that makes it more real to me.

Perhaps they shouldn't have made her type that way.. Maybe they should have shown her dealing with it instead of being introverted like she was.. But they chose to make her that way, and to go with that personality..

They could have shown something like a nightmare, but they didn't, and they didnt have to. (You are very right though it would have been nice I'll admit.. If they did something like that.)

That is what it comes down to I think.. Stripped away from all the crap surrounding it, blunt, concise.. To the point..

I don't feel there is anything I can say about this.

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

Stripped to the point my thoughts on Mayu:

She breaks the Czechow's golden rule (the one with the gun on the wall). Thus she weakens the show. That is all.

Yes, she can be portrayed like creators want her to be portrayed. Any rule can be broken after all, and creators are gods of the show, they can set their own rules. When I wrote 'have to show' I meant 'should have shown', to be precise.

Took a long time because I didn't notice Your answer, sorry about that.

[Caddberry (#27690)]

Uh.. Yeah.. Golden rule? What is that? If you already said it I'm not going to look for it.. LoL I was done with this thread 2 months ago..

I think the important thing to understand thomas is that you suck.. LoL I'm j/k man..

But yeah.. Ok.. whatever.. LoL I forgot all about everything we've talked about..

[Rosepetals (#42525)]

Holy moly....this thread is still alive and kicking...LOL and so much I have missed...

I'll probably have to watch Now and Then: Here and There before I come back to the conversation again, but nice to see that this conversation is stirring up new grounds.

[zitch (#80114)]

Well, I had finished and reviewed this remarkable series then ran though this monster of a thread, and I got to say, the series kept me hooked right up to the end. On one end, I am with Caddberry, Charn, and rosepetals19 about really liking this series as a whole, but I'm right in line with Thomas, Pantha, and Rossoline with the superfisciality of this series. LOL...

So, yeah, I liked it, but it's no masterpiece. In fact, I see it as being at best half of one, because it introduces some very serious and powerful themes, but never actually capitalizes on them. Instead, it basically forgets about them.

It's almost tempting to write up character and plot changes for how the anime should go to really give it substance, but I'll make another thread if I decide to do that. It would be interesting precursor to a fan-rewrite, though, much in line of what this group did with Neon Genesis Evangelion. From what I remember, they really disliked the direction NGE went, so they wrote their own version, which also included elements from other media like video games (X-Com: UFO Defence, Tomb Raider), TV Shows (X-Files), and novels/movies (2001: A SPACE ODYSSEY). I don't know if it's actually an improvement, and I don't know if people not familiar with those video games and movies would fully understand it, but it was quite a fun read, though it's been years since I last read it.

rosepetals19: Well, I recommend watching Now and Then, Here and There for itself, not to compare to EL... Then again, I'm actually a bit in Caddberry's camp that it's possible she would react this way. Mayu is actually one of the smallest issues in this series for me.

[charn (#40191)]

I just rewatched this anime as well. And my impression of this anime reduced drastically.

In my first watch, I overlooked all of the 'holes' Elfen Lied dug for its viewers. The main reason which I overlooked them is because I am an extremely squeamish person who is not used to seeing any kind of violence in the anime. (I was even trembling in outright fear watching Resident Evil and Event Horizon at the cinema, so that's pretty much describe how squeamish I am.) So it took me a lot of time for my brain to start 'rationalizing' after seeing each violent scenes .. and that's why I forgot to notice how much Elfen Lied contradicts itself.

Unlike other anime out there which the creators would try their hardest to make their viewers interpret their anime in the right way, Elfen Lied tries hardest to make their viewers interpret the show the wrong way, and for a good reason. Because only when you are in the wrong, then Elfen Lied can truly shine. If you interpret Elfen Lied wrongly, this show will appear to be romantic, substantial, and very touching, vice versa : If you see through the violence and nudity which are there to sidetrack your brain from being objective and really analyze the anime, you will see the true face of this show.

Like zitch said, this anime introduces lots of psychological issues, but executed those issues in the way which contradicts themselves. If you notice that, the whole story will fall flat on the surface. If Elfen Lied cannot lure you in with its story, there won't be anything else in Elfen Lied which will impress you. Instead, you will be disgusted with its gratuitous violence, numerous nudity, and fake drama. And that's why Elfen Lied's impressions are so extreme : people tend to either really love it or really dislike it.

And there are numerous factors in Elfen Lied which can sidetrack your attention so that you will interpret this show in a wrong way. Actually, when I rewatched it for the second time, I kept telling myself "Stop analyzing everything ! Just watch the show and enjoy it !" But, I couldn't. Like Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Elfen Lied is another anime which I wish that I could be in the wrong so that I will like it more. However, if I were to recommend this anime or not, I'd still recommend it anyway. I remembered very well how much I loved Elfen Lied when I interpreted this show wrongly. It was a very overwhelming feeling. I just want to recommend anyone who love Elfen Lied never to rewatch it. I am very sure that if I didn't rewatch it, my very high impression would still remain.

Normally I always hate myself for being so squeamish, but for Elfen Lied, I want to thank myself for once that I am squeamish. Had I not been squeamish, I wouldn't have been lured in and wouldn't have loved this show so much. I still remember that feeling. It's an amazing feeling, which although I realize now that Elfen Lied is just an illusion, I'll still thank the creators for making me feel so good for once, even though what I appreciated back then aren't real.

I still like Mayu as a character though. Yes, she's happy and she's not supposed to be happy, but maybe because she's so young and people around her are so nice to her ? Anyone wanna talk about that ?

[zitch (#80114)]

[-elfenlied- (#97911)]

Re: Elfen Debate! + Now & Then, Here & There (spoile

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

Imagine You walk in a room. There is this bunch of guys and girls, and one of them asks a question. The others start to reply. You stay silent, doing Your job, You even turn the walkman louder, because You cannot be bothered "for obvious reasons". So, You keep doing Your job, ignorign their discussion, and it goes on. Few guys walk away, soem stay, and keep on discussing. Later they drop the subject for a while, they rephrase it, they discuss it now and there, here and then and they discuss it all they might, they shout, joke, they compliment each other... all the while You keep out.

Finally, they end their debate. They walk away. Quarter a year later, You drop by that place again, and You leave a card saying: I couldn't be bothered with Your discussion, that ended long ago, but somewhere in my bookcase (I cannot be bothered to look for it) is a book that holds answers to the very first question that was asked in Your debate.

Later on, You leave the card, with a post scriptum, that You cannot be bothered to write well... and You leave.

You must have many friends IRL... with Your way with people, I'm sure they all love You... because, You are really a peculiar one.

Oh, You don't have to 'bother' with replying... I would not know a peaceful dream if You would sweat over another so greatly 'illuminating' reply as this one.

[charn (#40191)]

@Tammo

Well, that's why I didn't reply.

Anyway, I have to rewrite my review on Elfen Lied. I have not rewritten it yet. Though I have lowered the score to 7.2 instead of 8.5 .. and I still think that it's too high. My enjoyment in my second watch is around 6 (same level with Saikano) ... but in my first watch was 10 .. so to be fair, I gave enjoyment an eight.

P.S. Don't bother watching Evangelion. If you don't like it anyway don't force yourself to watch it. (I will never force myself to finish Honey and Clover just to review it. Oh, let the fanboys rave it as much as they want. My time is too precious to waste.) I suggest you to watch Gundam Seed + Gundam Seed Destiny. And if you love mindless action (Scryed style), watch G-Gundam.

[Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)]

With all the stuff going on IRL around me now, I most likely won't watch it. :-(

I lack the time for almost anything lately... :-(

Well, as for EL, I also am in the process of rewriting my old review. Pacing in which I do this is awfully slow (one paragraph per two, sometimes even three days) but it's being done... ;-)

[charn (#40191)]

[Klorid (#112790)]

hahaha people get mad easily vwahah

[Rosepetals (#42525)]

Re: hahaha people get mad easily vwahah

[Caddberry (#27690)]

Rose I torched the quote in your thread..

Klorid I covered your spoiler because it was a HUGE spoiler, and it wasn't what we were chatting about in this thread, but it was a manga spoiler which I havent read yet so I skipped it.

Please cover your spoilers properly.. Yes this thread had a tag in it for spoilers, but NOT manga spoilers.. There is a big difference and that looked like it spoiled A LOT.

[Zarek (#117701)]

Re: hahaha people get mad easily vwahah

[Rnayc (#126114)]

Re: hahaha people get mad easily vwahah

[Takasari (#126318)]

Re: Elfen Debate! + Now & Then, Here & There (spoilers !

[gamezfreak13 (#127478)]

there is absolutely no way im going to read everything up until here.


1. Why Lucy can transform to Nyuu ? The young Lucy has only one personality, and she can't become Nyuu. I really don't understand..
Older lucy gets hit in the head by a 50cal anti tank rifle. If that does't mess up your head, what will?
She is standing there on a beach and sees one of the two people who ever cared for her. She cant handle it and hides, repressing her traumatic memories as did Kouta, creating the exact opposite of what she has become "a foil to her more violent side"


2. What do you thing actually happened in the ending ? I was quite upset with the ending really coz it ended 20 seconds before it should have.. Who do you think is the one who rang the bell at Kouta's house ?
Well its got to be lucy. see the last post on this thread for my reasoning http://www.animenfo.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5759&start=45

Opinions please Elfen lied lovers.. (yup, I am one of them...) I have marked a spoiler on the topic so say all the spoilers your heart desire..
yay for elfen lied