AnimeNfo Forum Index AnimeNfo
 AnimeNfo Forums 
   SearchSearch     UsergroupsUsergroups 
 RegisterRegister   Log inLog in 

The time now is Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:05 am
All times are UTC + 1 (DST in action)		 View posts since last visit
View unanswered posts

Poll

What do you think about Elfen lied ?

Good stuff. Don't die before watching it.
80%
 80%  [ 84 ]
Average stuff. Watch it or not is up to you. Wouldn't make much difference.
9%
 9%  [ 10 ]
Don't watch this crud.
10%
 10%  [ 11 ]

Total Votes : 105
 

 Forum index » Anime Series Discussion Forum » Elfen Lied
Elfen Debate! + Now & Then, Here & There (spoilers !
Moderators: AnimeNfo Forum Moderator
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topicView next topic
Page 4 of 9 [393 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 Next
Author Message
Rosepetals (#42525)
AnimeNfo Site Staff


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 6171
Location: Nowhere and Everywhere
Quote:
Oh yeah! It struck me quite well aorund 5th episode, when I found out what is truly going on. Tell me Silent Blue- she hanged on ON WHAT? Do not forget please - she is a child. It is not an adult, strongwilled person. She is a child, one who is learning how to live, one who has not even undergone the process of maturing - so we cannot even say that she is fully grown (psyche is here more important then soma, but soma also is important cause her little endurance and physical strength will be quickly lessened EVEN MORE by hunger). Try to reason with 10 year old while he is hungry. Try to see how he will behave than. She was brought up normally, before her mother hooked up with the wrong person - who abused her. And when she finally mustered the courage to tell him stop it and ran to her mother for help she was BETRAYED. And You just say - hey, I like You babe, You are ok You can do it. There are moments when person WILL snap. When she/he WON'T do it. WON'T make it. And WON'T even try. Lucy snapped - that is why she became a killer. Mayu goes on when anybody would have snapped. And what is there? is there a moment when she behaves like little kid who remembers how fragile she is? how easily she can be beaten, broken or worse - RAPED? Tell me Silent Blue where is that moment?

I liked very much what You said about 'leraning to fly'. but such sentence can suit someone older than Mayu. Someone who experienced such childhood while being older, OR while having some asylum, someone who always would been there. If she was raped and betrayed why would she want to live with Kouta? She never even THOUGHT about him being possible rapist. Of course he is not, but still - the point here is - MAYU NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT. Not even once. She trusted him blindly. And considering her background that is... stupid. That is why I say her background is just for You to symphatize. To say - what a deep anime, it touches such deep topics. And yeah - TOUCHES is a PERFECT word here. Continuing - try see Ima Soko ni Iru Boku. Watch Sara. She has undergone hardships (I won't tell You what in case You have not seen this anime). Watch her reaction. And compare it with what Mayu does.


@ Tammo You base your argument that will/strength has to be learned in order for it to work and that children do not possess the knowledge of having that inner strength. However, I think your argument is misconstrued. Will/strength isn't solely an adaptable trait, it can also be inherited or serve as something that a person is born with--children aren't weak--labeling them so is doing them an injustice, and, while you are indirectly asserting it, you say the same thing with Mayu. I'm not saying that Mayu may have inherited that trait (doing so would dive too much into the anime series for what it was), yet that's a plausible explanation. And if you remember, Mayu didn't want to live with Kouta in the first place--she didn't have much of a choice because the officials wanted to take her away, remember that scene?

I don't defend Mayu because I like her (I do like her character, but I'm saying it's not my motivation for defending her); I defend her because I can see her situation, I don't look for expectations, I look at her situation then try to analyze and see from where she comes.

@Kaj LOL...I have a bone to pick with you Twisted Evil

I'll say this to you and Tammo since I read over your commentary---I'll make the same argument as I've done before countless times...you rely too much on expectation rather than seeing something for what it is. With Mayu, you expect her to be deprived, dirty and depressed because of all the things that happened to her and because of the fact that she's homeless. Homelessness doesn't have to entail a dirtiness, take a man whose stock crashes on wall street: he's lost his job, his home, his family...he's literally homeless, right? But he may have been wealthy beforehand. If he has a strong will, he can pick up the pieces by using what little money he has to buy food and find a place to live temporarily, keep himself clean because that's the only other way he'll be able to make a good impression and find a job, and if he's clever enough, he won't let on the fact that he's homeless--I think Mayu does this to a degree, though we don't blatantly see it. I think if the creators did emphasize it, it would only serve to overemphasize the matter at hand. Remember this: age doesn't necessarily determine maturity--persona does, on it's own AND with experience.

It's true that we don't get a sense of how Mayu kept up with herself from the scenes in EL, yet, it's quite possible that she could have had the motivation to keep herself clean and keep going on with life as if nothing happened, to decieve others from knowing the fact that she was homeless. We know for sure that she was trying to hide it; why else would she run away from the police, why else would she deny a haven in Kouta's house (she didn't want to disturb them nor let on the fact that she needed them--somewhat going back to her reluctance to be with others because of her past, her trust isn't garnered as easily as you interpreted.)

It's hard to see it as a flaw rather than just as a factor. I think both of you undermine Mayu to a certain degree because she's a child.

There's another point I want to make--Mayu's maturity serves as a direct contrast to Lucy/Nyuu in many ways, I think underlying all of this controversy, the creators wanted to establish that contrast to the teeth. Both Lucy/Nyuu and Mayu's pasts were corrupt..and to frankly say, they were damnable.

Both were betrayed, abused, and beaten to a degree of a breaking point. With Mayu, her resilience was great, but Lucy broke, so much that she had two separate entities of herself, her rage (Lucy) and her innocence (Nyuu)--it wasn't just the fact that she was a diclonius--it was a reflection of her cognitive state. Nyuu's innocence lies in her immaturity--she's a child, going along the lines of what one might think when they see a child, but at the same time, it's a regressive state, Mayu's innocence lies in her capability, she's a child as well, but she's knowledgeable, she lives and adapts more readily than Nyuu.

The point that EL might have wanted to make is that no person interprets hardship the same way--nor do they go about dealing with it in such a manner, I think it's one of the most artistic points in EL. They weaved in Mayu's story with Lucy's to show the difference between their breaking points. Lucy obviously had more breaking points than Mayu and vividly displayed that with her merciless killer actions, yet with Mayu, she does move away from her distrust, rather slowly, not as quickly as you both say.

Indeed, her hardship came in her past...with time comes capability. It's not as if one day Mayu had something happen to her and the next she was happy go lucky, it was over time, she had a chance to reason with it--that may explain the change in her state and the less emphasis that EL placed, because it was over time. Yet, you can get a sense in her reluctance, very vague but still present, in dealing with others. Would an extra 25 episodes of EL detailing how she came about doing so be necessary? Yes it would have helped developed her character a bit more, but it would've taken away from the focal points of the story, so it was condensed.

I'll update this as I go through the day, but I hope you understand what I mean, if not I'll try to make it more clear later. Wink
_________________

"I am not sure why I am so attracted to roses...but roses are romantic. Just like the flower, my music is on the borderline between reality and escapism"
-Rie Fu

Reviews
Remember to read the Rules and FAQ.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:12 pm
Last edited by Rosepetals (#42525) on Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
  View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger 
ICQ Number 
   Back to top 
Joshua (#55329)
AnimeNfo Peasant

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 82
 Thomas this is for you so I hope you are ready and by the way how are you?

Quote:
So perhaps You can answer me on those:

1. How dicloniuses appeared, how they were discovered.
2. What exactly are vectors.
3. How male dicloniuses have taken control over dicloniuses resarch facility, and why they chose such lines of tests for female dicloniuses.
4. Why mate with a female diclonius if she can cause 'a virus' to make human conception infected... so a diclonius will be born.
5. Why, if dicloniuses are genetically evil and set on human race killing, is Nana so nice to everyone and why the bad childhood Lucy had was possible? After all she would have killed those children on sight being so 'evil' and trying to make humans disappear.
6. Why if dicloniuses are normal children at first (seems so looking at Nana or Lucy) no one tried to rasie them as such rather tending to believe some vague hints that they are evil said by no one knows who exactly, so it must be true.
7. How come Lucy is special? What is the reason? Why she can havebabies and the other ones cannot?
8. Why is Mariko so powerful? 26 vectors? come on! SHE IS a queen, Lucy is a fry compared to Mariko.
9. Why size differs in vectors? Who invented such tests on dicloniuses?
10. How come, that in a facility when Lucy was detained they had only one way to stop her (and not 100% effective!) and it was not implemented in the first place?

First ten. I truly hope You like me still Joshua, I like You.


1. The diclonious appeared through evolution.

2.)Vectors are the invsible hands that they use to kill people and etc.

3.)I really don't know they hide their appearance and have the money to do so. But from my understanding they only wanted the diclonius who had the herediatary chromosomes to reproduce mre like them. They were doing all those test to see how strong they were and find out their origin because they still don't know according to the chief. He just says their has to be a Queen.

4.) The point is to do just that because the Chief wants to wipe out the entire human race and let diclonious rule the planet. that is why they want lucy because she is the purest of all the diclonious who can reproduce diclonious because all of them don't have that chromosome.

5.)The thing about it is that Lucy is the first one that they ever caught and after that more of them were popping up but they don't know that for certain that only happned in Lucy's case. But she is the only one they have to confirm this since all the rest were taken and if they didn't have the hereditary chromosoime then they were killed. How do you want them to act really when they are born they are practically tortured with all of those test that they run. In Nana's case she was given father figure and someone who she can look to for strenght and the others didn't have that but then again none of them had a chance. The scientist were only used one diclonious to classify them all but that was only to fullfill the Chiefs on purposes of re creating the world. We as people some time stereotype and that was the case here.

6.) No one bothered because they were taken so quickly and they already had this bad rep and Lucy was the first that they found. Mind you their is a queen. I will admit that this is kind of half baked since they never did give any indication why was it that they only showed the people who were working at the diclonious research place had diclonious. the explain alittle something about it but I would have to re watch it.

7.) Lucy is special because she inheredited the the hereditary chromosome to have others. I am a twin so i have an identical brother who looks exactly like me now all because I am a twin doesn't neccessaritly meran I can have them. So it's same in thsi case they just don't have it. that is how genetics works we all don't have the exactly same hereditary chromosomes to pass on.

8.)Mariko is a third generation diclonious that is why she is so strong but she doesn't have the hereditary chromosome so she was initially suppose to be dead in the first place. When Lucy was caught their were plenty of them being born but as time went on the blood became less pure as well because it isn't as if nthey were mating with each other.

9.) For the diclonoius the size of vectors differs for the same reason that someone else eyes are blue and mines are brown, someones height, their bone structure, no one has the same genetic material unless you are identical twins. The creator of these experiments is the Chief because he started it all.Then again I doubt it was actually him who created the test but he did get the ball rolling and I'm pretty sure got the funds.

10.)I really don't know.

Quote:
So - Mayu. Let me tell You this. There are essays written on her seemingly deep background and how her story is moving and touching, ant that clearly EL states that child abuse is very wrong and... BULLSHIT ME NO MORE PLEASE. Her story is an art of manipulation. Who's doing the manipulating - the creators. Who's been subject of manipulation - the viewers. Name me ONE motive which is influenced by Mayu's background. Name me the impact it has on HER. You cannot, because it has NO influence, NO impact, she is brightufl girl, one of the most cute girl one can meet, she is amazing, cheerful, sweet, polite... Every girl who was raped multiple times at the age of 10 is so. SURE MAN! It's just this side effect of rape on children no one knew about. On Mayu there is a lot covered earlier Joshua, so I will stop it here, so to not bore ppl with being repetive.


Now you made some very good arguments as far as this character because this true since when are yo suppose to be happy and cheerful. She should be angry, shy, or in a rage whatever I get that and that is true if she has went through so much pain maybe she should have projected that pain some to let us know she is really hurting. this is good I love a challenge, I hope you are ready.

Mayu has gone through something but think about it this way she was in a horrible place and now that she has found a family she is glad she is happy and for good reason. Look at were she has come from and look were she is now i would be happy too. I thought Mayu's story was shocking because when you look at her this nice, kind, sweet girl you would never think that she has been through that.

The impact her past had on her was that she was on the streets because of it. she had to leave because her own mother didn't belive her or didn't want to so her stefather kept on doing his dirt. She had no money no food having to eat bread crums just to live. It had an impact on her when she was in the alley crying her eyes out. I assure you it wasn't because she had a to nice of a house or to much food to eat with parents. Mayu has changed because at first she was shy and sad but her cheerfulness was only a front because she was sad inside. You know sometimes sad people pretend nothing is wrong by smiling all the time and being cheerful because they don't want people to see.

Quote:
That guy is quite an example. Actually he manages ti win my deepest disbleief in the series. Bando is portrayed clearly - one sided. So is Kouta. And Yuta. And almost everyone else. But this guy... he actually attempts some depth. And fails miserably, it's clear cause it's as the scenario could ever let him achieve it!!! I wrote about him earlier also, about this children murdering while having his own baby on the way, about his decisions in the whole case, about how the whole process looked like and what were the reaction of ppl surrounding it...
This guy COULD HAVE some substance. But this children murdering actually ripped him off it.


Can you pleae go into detail how the mudering of the babies hinders his character? I will comment when you shed more light.

Quote:
Lucy has some depth, but I cannot imagine ANY reason for me to like her - she's actually a cold-blooded murderer, she murders without hesitation or mercy, she even enjoys it. And this anime tries to make me symphatize, and stubnornly portrays her as grey character -= why? she is a pervect villain here! She had a bad childhood even - that's the most used up lately excuse for becoming a villain, she brought harm to main character in the past, that's villainish as well!



Yes Lucy is a mudurer but and she has depth. the thing is about liking her that is really up to you some people hate her and I think thats good because you are suppose to have feelings drawn out of you. some is hate, some sympathy because her past but either way she does her job. I think Lucy is controversal and that is a good thing. nothing like a little controversy to spice up a character. she is the best character to me because she isn't one diminsional she has all of these layers. People are torn but I think that is the idea. She is so horrible Lucy but how can you not love Nyuu.

I think another reason why people are so forgiving to Lucy because with all the violence and nudity is the theme of Elfen Lied not forgiveness. Yes Lucy did some horrible things and i know in this society people don't let things like murder go. With that said I think that although we are human and we can't let things like that go from a moral stand pointm we are suppose to. I think Elfen Lied is very clever indeed because they use violence and nudity to promote a greater good. This formula may be crazy but based on the fanbase on this site it worked. i know this may sound cheesy and if it does I really can't apologize.

Thomas i hope I gave you something to think. So let the debate continue.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:19 pm
Last edited by Joshua (#55329) on Thu Mar 24, 2005 7:26 am; edited 1 time in total
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Rosepetals (#42525)
AnimeNfo Site Staff


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 6171
Location: Nowhere and Everywhere
 @ Joshua, very nice argument! You made some of my--and others--same points to a degree. Hopefully, we can see where this argument goes when the opposing team responds....so to speak. Wink
_________________

"I am not sure why I am so attracted to roses...but roses are romantic. Just like the flower, my music is on the borderline between reality and escapism"
-Rie Fu

Reviews
Remember to read the Rules and FAQ.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:32 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger 
ICQ Number 
   Back to top 
dirty (#71854)
AnimeNfo Peasant


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 20
Kaj (#32327) wrote:
Okay, so it would seem that her homelessness wasn't explicitly mentioned. Even so my point STILL stands as they had to make it so obvious before her homelessness was revealed.


Yes your point STILL stands for YOU, since you think the directors motive is to include Mayu's back story to make her homelessness obvious to yourself, while for others like myself her initial appearances portrayed some ambiguity about her character to suggest some underlying issues,,,

Quote:
There are a lot of homeless people near where I live. They are so identifiable no matter what they are doing, walking around or sitting in a corner of a street. Mayu was not one of those characters. She and the puppy both lacks the appearance of homeless beings. Although there was a reason why the puppy wasn't so scruffy,


Fair enough that is how you see a homeless person.

Quote:
I can't see any reason for Mayu looking so normal and acting so normal (apart from the scenes that they suddenly remember that she was supposed to be homeless, so threw in a few scenes of her suffering). Strange that they were so graphic about her sexual abuse then when it comes to homelessness, but not so eager to portray this side animations wise.


Sometimes when you're suffering rather than wallow in self pity you try to get on with life? When you are in Mayu's position let's see what you do eh? Wink That is the director's medium of informing us why Mayu is the elusive, stuttering girl she is,,,yes it could have been alternatively portrayed but obviously the director chose to hijack our emotions to harness our sympathy towards Mayu and to maintain the depressive tone of the series.

Quote:
I can't remember anything about the shed though. Can't rewatch that again as I don't have it anymore. Even if I did, I'm not sure I want to bother watching it again except maybe try and find a couple of specific scenes that I'd be looking for. But, anyway, yes there were points where you can clearly see she her homeless side, but she also frequently acts out of character. Bit like Bando. Sometimes he acts like a commando, but the problem arises because he also frequenctly acts like a dumbass, not like a commando. As for trying to disguise her homelessness, well, it's not really the easiest thing in the world to hide. Again, you just need to take a look at the homeless people down my street to see how hard it is for them to fit in like normal people. It's not just the way they act.


Nobody's forcing you to rewatch,,,but while engaging in a discussion it is credible to at least know the basics,,,

What do you consider a normal person dare I ask? Is a homeless person not normal to you? Are they not considered human beings?

[quote="Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)"]MWAHAHAHAHA
I got them all!! I pretended to be nice and now they are INSIDE my trap!
MWAHAHAHAHA

Smile Wink

So. MAYU. You guys have picked VERY unfortunate topic to argue about.
/me smiles devilishly/
You see, with Mayu there is just this one little problem. She is TRULY not affected. Child her age, forced to live on the streets will not be so brightful, because it will realize how terryfying the world can be. It will not be so trusting, because it's trust have been BADLY damaged, by the person who should NEVER EVER have done so - her own mother. She will not be so ready to help a SWEARING MAN, because he will remind him of her abusive stepfather. Yet that is ALL Mayu does. She IS cheerful, VERY polite, immensely nice and seemingly happy. Let me quote You a fragment of my review on Mayu:

I agree with most of your psychobabble, but when your trust is broken do you forever never trust again? Perhaps not but then again you are already a cynical 35 year old male who sees the world only as a miserable place Wink whereas she is a 10 year old girl still with alot of self discovery and life experience ahead. You can't say for sure you know how long she has been homeless for and over time people forgive/forget and the pain of betrayal subsides.

Yes a swearing man pissing out blood from his eyes and missing some limbs,,,it is not a typical situation so you are placed with an ethical choice,,,somebody's life is at stake, does your conscience not take a stab at you and tear apart those emotional safety guards? You are human aren't you? Donate to charity Wink

Hmm cheerful? I wouldn't go that far, around Wanta she is happy but generally she is not what I consider cheerful,,,more as a person content with the temporal equilibrium of their disposition.

in my review I wrote:

GIRL WITH A DOG
Well... she's a girl and she has a dog. She's HOMELESS. So... she's a bright, cheerful, happy, cute, truly 'kawaii' HOMELESS girl with a dog and black hair. Bright cheerful, cute, happy STARVING HOMELESS...


You know - if anime strives to be dark, when it touches so severe topics like child abuse... then why the hell they make this girl so damn happy? Why is she smiling all the time? She does not know where to sleep. She does not know what to eat. She has PLENTY of worries and she is (THAT"S THE DEAL PEOPLE) 10 years old. What wilpower does she have? She should be affected by her past - she clearly is not. I would tell You first this IS a character with substance IF she would not have that past. Why? It would make her more real for me. Let's take some other posts by me:

How odd you mention the anime striving to be dark and you mention happy as well,,,but sadness and happiness exist in a dichotomous relationship and clearly how do you define darkness without the 'lightness'. Mayu has never been "so damn happy" and yes she may have had an unwrranted unfortunate past but if you want to live and mope about it rather than forget and move onto better things then shouldn't child suicide be on the cards? Her home life caused betrayal, sexual abuse and sadness, however she found serenity at the ocean and friendship in Wanta.

earlier, I wrote:

- when I looked at Mayu DURING the abuse motive I felt sorry for her, her mother reaction made me feel the betrayal, I understood what she went through (not the whole thing but I got the idea).

- when I looked at her at the cemetery I laughed and thought what a cheerful and resolute cute little one! I really like You girl! Quick thinking and sharp wit! The same was when she did so great with Bando "I'm in a pinch right now." Smile

- and then was the third situation - starving, homeless, child betrayed by those, who should never have done so - parents, especially mother.

So what do we have here?
A child who will be broken by hunger, without hope in life and feeling depressed and unsecure by the one's she trusted the most, forced to stealing or begging. When I was little kid I got lost for almost whole day. I remember what one feels than. Other day, I run away from home saying to myself - I will never return there. I remember how being alone in the world made me feel - without home to go to sleep.

I both of those situations I managed to get some food. By my own. But I was terrified by thought of sleeping outside, I was terrified of solitude. And I know she got it worse. [added] And for the food I almost begged. Being polite did not worked.[end addition]

Her cheerful, polite, cute attitude makes You close an eye on this. So why add this if You are making viewer forget it?

She is a kid for God's sake! How did she managed? How did she persevered such hardships BEFORE Kouta took her in? She never broke, just once she wavered - when the puppy was taken away - and she just gave him like that - did not do a thing - and don't start here with - it was better for him cause it was clearly shown afterwards she says it just to feel better and comfort herself.

I just give up with so many inconsistences - I made myself see her in a normal way - like Shinobu-chan from Love Hina. She had problems, Keitarou fixed them. All. I said to myself: Pretend she is Shinobu. And so I did. An here lies the trick - if she were good character, deeply drawn, I could not have done so. Still - she's very much likeable - I admit that.


Well it shows you are a pessimist and your own experiences have likened your disbelief of how Mayu should respond,,,sure it's most likely a person in her situation would be contemplating suicide,,,I'm just as cynical as you are but I can see the optomistic disposition,,,Mayu made a critical life choice when she left her home and she gathers some hope from not having to be sexually abused,,,there are two great motivators in life hope and fear,,,and fear decided for her,,,she has found a life friend in Wanta and that is good reason enough since it is evident that Wanta brings Mayu a bond of friendship,,,take a look around you,,,the bond of friendship is often the minimal necessity that alot of people are living in this world today.

"I was terrified of solitude." Wink

Combine By Caddberry

PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:47 pm
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
charn (#40191)
AnimeNfo Juggernaut


Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 3420
 yeah yeah dirty, silent blue, Joshua, rosepetals come on beat the shit out of Thomas LOL

Charn sama (President of Elfen Lied lovers club.. but due to his busy work commitments he can no longer spend 5 hours replying to Thomas's debate on this lovely crud.. but he reads all the posts ... and by his generous invitation.. he welcomes dirty, Joshua, and Silent Blue into Elfen Lied lovers club with open arms..)
_________________
Charn's Top Favorite Anime List

PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:45 pm
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Kaj (#32327)
AnimeNfo Warrior

Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 599
Location: UK
Quote:

Yes your point STILL stands for YOU, since you think the directors motive is to include Mayu's back story to make her homelessness obvious to yourself, while for others like myself her initial appearances portrayed some ambiguity about her character to suggest some underlying issues,,,

I don't see why they are trying to go for ambiguity when it should it should have been clear cut straight away. Yes, there was something strange about the way she acted, but homeless would have been one of my last guesses cos it's something I expected to pick up straight away from appearance and actions.

Rose, your example of that sort of homeless is sound. BUT it clearly doesn't apply in this case since Mayu is oceans apart from the man you described. I can't see how the hell Mayu the kid, who ran away from home and is living on bread crumbs, should be as clean and cheerful as that. And yes, I think I also see your plausible theories as to how she could have survived. I see it, but I find it hard to believe. Don't you think that the way Mayu survived and still be like she is now is no mean feat? Because it was no ordinary achievement, I'd expect at least some explanation on how she did it, to see her "in action", because it deviates from the norm so much. With the lack of hard evidence it's only natural for me to assume that they didn't really think her character through properly. Can you blame me for underestimating her when she doesn't show abnormal survival instincts? She seem to be trying hard to make ends meet just like other homeless people. In common cases you'd expect her to be worse off because she's a kid, but SOMEHOW she manages to be better off that your average homeless person. To the extent that you can't immediately identify her as one, at least not from appearance. And how she does it is a mystery.
Quote:


Sometimes when you're suffering rather than wallow in self pity you try to get on with life? When you are in Mayu's position let's see what you do eh? Wink That is the director's medium of informing us why Mayu is the elusive, stuttering girl she is,,,yes it could have been alternatively portrayed but obviously the director chose to hijack our emotions to harness our sympathy towards Mayu and to maintain the depressive tone of the series.


There's a difference between getting on with life and blatently forgetting it altogether. The way she can shrug it off as thoughit never happened... I'd go as far as saying you can separate Mayu into two different characters, because she simply didn't feel like one person - the influence of one side on the other seems to be virtually nil. The non suffering side simply comes out completely later on. Yes it is possible that she keeps it out in. But again, in light of lack of indication of this, I feel it's unlikely.

Quote:

Nobody's forcing you to rewatch,,,but while engaging in a discussion it is credible to at least know the basics,,,

What do you consider a normal person dare I ask? Is a homeless person not normal to you? Are they not considered human beings?


ah well, I felt they were minor details anyway that didn't really affect my argument that much. I mean, there's not much difference between someone saying "she is homeless" and the breadcrumbs conversation, since that makes it obvious enough.

And about the normal people homeless people thing... my apologies. I phrased my words badly. I didn't mean homeless people are not normal, I simply meant non homeless people. I used the word normal in the sense that, in my everyday life, most of the people I come across are not homeless.

Need to address some of joshua's explanations too, but I need a break from writing replies to this thread lol.

PS I like the comparison between Lucy and Mayu that you pointed out, Rosepetals ^^. It's not something I picked up on. But I think that could indeed be by design and not coincidence.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 8:56 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger    Back to top 
Gunman (#70302)
AnimeNfo Peasant


Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Posts: 44
Location: Unknown
 1st of all, i would like to say that every each of you posting here deserve my respect and admiration. Ive been tracking this thread for a while, but due to the massive posts, i felt that my opinion would suck. But today i gained the courage to post something.

Review of Elfen Lied:

Well, i must say this is one of the best series i´ve ever seen. Altough i haven´t seen even 10 anime series, this is no doubt in my top 3.
I pretty much agree with the first post of Silent Blue, the serie was indeed touching. But there are several flaws, like the fact that Mayu didn´t seem to be afected at all by the raping from her parents. Also the fact that the security forces along the series, always used the same gun, knowing it wouldn´t even injure Lucy. But i think this last one was really for the purpose of manipulation of the security forces from the Director. If anyone notices the episode where the director´s son kills a diclonius with a Famas ( a armor-piercing rifle), he said that they could only be killed with a armor-piercing rifle. Does anyone here see the connection? The director and his son are both dicloniuses, and only they (and also Kurama and that sniper from the 1st ep) know that, so they must want to fool the people that they are protecting them, but their real intention is to terminate humanity.
I think that this idea hasn´t been explored enough (the apocaliptic scenario), so it was a bit of a dissapointament (many of you may disagree with me, but keep in mind that i´m still a newbie when it comes to anime Razz). Now, im watching NGE and after, i will consider watching Gasaraki.

P.S: Sorry about this incoeherent post, i will improve the next one. Wink

PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 9:56 pm
Last edited by Gunman (#70302) on Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:50 am; edited 2 times in total
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)
AnimeNfo Review Moderator

Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 1763
Location: At work. Always at work. Always at Your service.
 Re to re - even more than one re at the time
Hello there people.

I would like to tell You Dirty, that double posting goes against the rules - so next time put all in one post.

That post may seem acidic at times (because I treated Your points fairly - APPRECIATE IT Razz - and went to read several things on child-abuse... not very nice lecture, I assure You Sad), so I will warn You here, and tell You, that I respect Your opinion, and while I want You to understand mine, I'm striving to see Yours as well. Hope I will achieve at both. Wink Anyway - I want You to know - no offense whatsoever meant and/or intended - and gosh - NEVER AGAIN - horrible topic.

Here are my answers to Your posts people, I go with people, not problems You raised, so that I can address everything (I hate when people tend to overlook some part of my post just because they do not know how to address it - if they do not know they could admit it as well - I do so).

Starting with Dirty, I will address those points You had for me.

dirty (#71854) wrote:

I agree with most of your psychobabble, but when your trust is broken do you forever never trust again? Perhaps not but then again you are already a cynical 35 year old male who sees the world only as a miserable place Wink whereas she is a 10 year old girl still with alot of self discovery and life experience ahead. You can't say for sure you know how long she has been homeless for and over time people forgive/forget and the pain of betrayal subsides.


Psychobabble... I will overlook it since You said I agree, although for me it has _very_ negative meaning.
Read again what I wrote and what You did. You gleefully said that she will trust again more easier because she was betrayed while beeing young.
For me that is PRECISELY the reason she won't do so that easily. And no matter her age, RAPE is sth women/girls/children tend not to forget easily.
Have You ever interacted with someone who was raped while being young? She may be young, have a lot before her and all that... but honestly, there are some things one cannot so EASILY brush aside. And she forgets it almost completely. Psychology states that people have their own fears. They have to battle them, and fears return, they tend to return suddenly, when people are not prepared. She has no such thing. The flashback is shown once. And then it is cutted out. You still have not given my any examples on where did the story turned that way because of Mayu's past? What influence it had on her? None of my questions are answered. Instead You pointed out that perhaps a 10 years old girl, who first time in her life was so badly betrayed and hurt on body and mind, is able to shut it all down so perfectly like a grown up trained by years of experience. I suggest You to read books on Inquisition and how they broke people with pain and betrayal, or rahter BETRAYAL and pain. One of the best tactiques to break people is to make them feel deserted, alone, without support from those who were sure to give them such support. For Mayu such persons are her parents.

And I can say that she was homeless for around a year. That's mentioned in series somewhere. During that year, when we take a look on her memories in this ONE flashback (in 13 episodes one flashback.... that speaks VOLUMES on importancy of the thing) she has nothing so nice or special except the dog to happen to her. Yet she has clean clothes all the time (probably some kind of autocleaning device well hidden, that is why she needs only one skirt/blouse). Those clothes are not even scratched, not to mention worn out (probably, not only autocleaning but even autorepairing whoah!).
And one more thing. You are turning the whole thing upside down. I said - she would not be so trusting. You are making it into: "she will NEVER EVER trust ANYBODY". That was not my point. My point was she trusted way too quick. It's kinda like: hell, whatever, last guy raped me but perhaps this one is ok. This was kinda WEIRD. Neutral

About Bando lying on the beach and bleeding; life at stake etc. SURE MAN. That is always what kid will think at first. Because young kids are so familiar with such topics, at ten they know exatlcy what death is, they have seen it hundreds of times, and they are not scared anymore, after all what can scare a kid like that who never ever have seen blood coming out with such pressure (BANDO HAD ARTERIA'S OPENED - the blood was practically GUSHING OUT). And yes, such kid is perfect medic at the time, after all, when You are homeless You always carry on with You a CLEAN HANDKERCHIEF, white as a snow and probably desinfected as well - we can trust the creators on that one, I assume, since we can trust them on such detail as autorepair and autocleaning in clothes than the hell why not a CLEAN WHITE handkerchief! And while it has such handkerchiefs it also happens to know how to stop blood coming out and bandage a torn limb yes... that is precisely what 10 years old girl must know while leaving on the street. After all it's a common rutine in Japan to find shredded man on a daily jogging route. For Mayu it was probably fourth time that week. Silly me, I wondered why she was so good at it. Neutral Hope You liked my donation Dirty ;p Wink

Cheerful for me is person full of cheers (kinda simplifying it here, I know). And that is what she always doing. She cheers for Bando - wait, everything will be all right, I will call an ambulance - she cheers on Nana, she cheers on Wanta, she cheers on this lady from a bakery... She even tries to stop Nana and Lucy from fighting. Hell I dunno why, and how she sees the vectors is also kind of mystery. If I had seen the tombs being shredded apart my instinct of survivalist (any animal and human has it, Mayu is the exception - hey! Dirty! That is Your point in the trusting issue! She hasn't normal instincts human has! Silly me! ;P Wink) would have told me sth along this: hey man... why go there? look at the sea, isn't it beautiful? Go there! And if there would be no sea in 50 km radius and I would have stumbled with that thought in my mind my instinct quickly would have pointed out: see? You can go see it, and such long trip is kinda interesting! And it would be convincing as hell just to achieve me going NOT THERE. Because there is DANGEROUS. But she thinks like a cutie from Japanese ideals - so she HAS to stop the fight, why? Because fight is bad.

In my earlier posts I wrote:

You know - if anime strives to be dark, when it touches so severe topics like child abuse... then why the hell they make this girl so damn happy? Why is she smiling all the time? She does not know where to sleep. She does not know what to eat. She has PLENTY of worries and she is (THAT"S THE DEAL PEOPLE) 10 years old. What wilpower does she have? She should be affected by her past - she clearly is not. I would tell You first this IS a character with substance IF she would not have that past. Why? It would make her more real for me. Let's take some other posts by me:

Quote:
How odd you mention the anime striving to be dark and you mention happy as well,,,

Sure it is odd. It is certainly SUITING together here. Because after all it is Elfen Lied we are talking about. That is the problem EL has. It mixed those tw things (dark mood and light humour) and it mixed it badly.

Quote:
earlier, I wrote:

- when I looked at Mayu DURING the abuse motive I felt sorry for her, her mother reaction made me feel the betrayal, I understood what she went through (not the whole thing but I got the idea).

- when I looked at her at the cemetery I laughed and thought what a cheerful and resolute cute little one! I really like You girl! Quick thinking and sharp wit! The same was when she did so great with Bando "I'm in a pinch right now." Smile

- and then was the third situation - starving, homeless, child betrayed by those, who should never have done so - parents, especially mother.

So what do we have here?
A child who will be broken by hunger, without hope in life and feeling depressed and unsecure by the one's she trusted the most, forced to stealing or begging. When I was little kid I got lost for almost whole day. I remember what one feels than. Other day, I run away from home saying to myself - I will never return there. I remember how being alone in the world made me feel - without home to go to sleep.

I both of those situations I managed to get some food. By my own. But I was terrified by thought of sleeping outside, I was terrified of solitude. And I know she got it worse. [added] And for the food I almost begged. Being polite did not worked.[end addition]

Her cheerful, polite, cute attitude makes You close an eye on this. So why add this if You are making viewer forget it?

She is a kid for God's sake! How did she managed? How did she persevered such hardships BEFORE Kouta took her in? She never broke, just once she wavered - when the puppy was taken away - and she just gave him like that - did not do a thing - and don't start here with - it was better for him cause it was clearly shown afterwards she says it just to feel better and comfort herself.

I just give up with so many inconsistences - I made myself see her in a normal way - like Shinobu-chan from Love Hina. She had problems, Keitarou fixed them. All. I said to myself: Pretend she is Shinobu. And so I did. An here lies the trick - if she were good character, deeply drawn, I could not have done so. Still - she's very much likeable - I admit that.


Well it shows you are a pessimist and your own experiences have likened your disbelief of how Mayu should respond,,,sure it's most likely a person in her situation would be contemplating suicide,,,I'm just as cynical as you are but I can see the optomistic disposition,,,Mayu made a critical life choice when she left her home and she gathers some hope from not having to be sexually abused,,,there are two great motivators in life hope and fear,,,and fear decided for her,,,she has found a life friend in Wanta and that is good reason enough since it is evident that Wanta brings Mayu a bond of friendship,,,take a look around you,,,the bond of friendship is often the minimal necessity that alot of people are living in this world today.

"I was terrified of solitude." Wink


While You quoted most of my post You did not adress it almost at all. :/
There are more motivations in life than those two, but let's simplify it along the lines of Your reasoning. What You said has hands and legs (saying from my country - means the same as has sense Wink). However. There is nothing like You said SHOWN in the anime. Not a trace that Mayu is thinking like that, not a hint in a dialogue that she is thinking about her past at all, not to mention such specific things. When she is in trouble she does not try to take strength fro mhe decision - most anime characters do - in Elfen Lied it is also a noticeable trend, so why exclude her out of it if she has such decision?
That is main point You and Rose have in common. You are pointing POSSIBILITIES. And saying that the series were likeable because it has given You those (that's mainly You, not RosePetals Wink). SURE. I can ALSO point out SEVERAL possibilities. And they will not be likeable at all. They can be in fact VERY disgusting, like Mayu secretly hoping for repetition of abuse, because she found it nice after a while (probably abusive stepfather wanted her to keep it a secret so he gave her lots of presents) and she expects it from Kouta, so she agrees to live with him on such short notice. Probability of it? VERY LOW. But it is not shown in the anime, and it is possible. So I can argue along that line. I just do not think that we need here to take EVERY possibility into account.
And You are doing that. You are arguing based on assumption that she chose to 'carry on without moping' even while You KNOW what is the MOST PROBABLE option for her to do and how it differs entirely.


@ Lady of Rose Petals, read carefully here, Your post is on the table now.
@ Dirty - the following part of the message referrs much more to other posts, however there still will be pieces You will find are a bit for You as well.

Another point Dirty seems to share with Lady of Nineteen Falling Petals of Roses. You are making Mayu kinda special, because of giving her credit of a mature girl, while still allowing her the simplicity and behaviour of an ordinary child. I think she is NONE of the above.
Decide how You want to see her. Either treat her as a child, or as a grown-up, don't switch in-between.

Let's agree on some points here.
1) She IS a child.
2) ...

The list was short. ;P Wink Very Happy Wasn't it? Very Happy
Seriously saying I think that You tend to OVERRATE her maturity. Of course it is possible that she is so strongwilled. Of course it is possible that she does what I deem unreal for kids. However look above - possibility for that is low. What I am basing my words on. I had little experience in working with kids, but I have friends and colleagues who have similar experience as well - including working with difficult children (pathological families, broken families, psychical-illness, retarded kids). I know some backgrounds for some cases. I don't want to declare myself authority here. My experience was short as I stated before and it was with normal kids - but my relative for three months once a week I spent 2 hours helping. My other relative WORKS with retarded kids. And she used to work with so-called bad kids (bad - meaning broken families, pathological parents and stuff).
So I heard 'a few' stories. And in the middle of writing I wnet and searched in the google for "child abuse official statistics". And read a bit as well.

So let's have some statistics so You will deal with the POSSIBILITY here.
And I tried to point those, who are SOMEHOW related with Mayu - still - I read some brochures and did not really wanted to delve MOR in the matter... Sad My good mood is ruined nevertheless.
My comments are colored.

    Approximately 95% of teenage prostitutes have been sexually abused.
    Source: CCPCA, 1992.
That indicates, that abuse of children leads to sth bad - if they become prostitutes at such early age, it means there is sth wrong with them. Mayu is certainly not showing out ANY such thing.

    It is estimated that children with disabilities are 4 to 10 times more vulnerable to sexual abuse than their non-disabled peers.
    Source: National Resource Center on Child Sexual Abuse, 1992.
Because they are less likely to be able to defend themselves, and they are more likely to be passive, that is satisfying some animal lust for power. Going further with that children passive, shy, timid, reserved and not sure of themselvesm having low opinion on themself, low esteem are more likely to be abused for very similar reasons than they more confident peers. If Mayu were strongwilled from the beginning she would be less likely to suffer like she did.

    Long term effects of child abuse include fear, anxiety, depression, anger, hostility, inappropriate sexual behavior, poor self esteem, tendency toward substance abuse and difficulty with close relationships.
    Source: Browne & Finkelhor, 1986.
It is shown clearly that is LASTED - not that is once or twice done so. Remember the bastard words? 'Do it as we ALWAYS were doing it.' Yet does she show any of this?

    Clinical findings of adult victims of sexual abuse include problems in interpersonal relationships associated with an underlying mistrust.
Underlying mistrust would have caused her to run away from Kouta's and Yuta's house the very first night she spend there, and _perhaps_ steal sth as well.

    Generally, adult victims of incest have a severely strained relationship with their parents that is marked by feelings of mistrust, fear, ambivalence, hatred, and betrayal. These feelings may extend to all family members.
    Source: Tsai and Wagner, 1978.
Ok. that one is about family, so perhaps I will not be trying to enhance it to other ppl although I could have done so.

    Guilt is universally experienced by almost all victims. Courtois and Watts described the "sexual guilt" as "guilt derived from sexual pleasure"
    Source: Tsai and Wagner, l978.
I do not see any guilt. And YES I KNOW she probably did not felt ANY pleasure whatsoever, (it is rather meant that whn such person feels sexual pleasure she feels guilt for it later) but still, she never even shown hesitance as to maybe I was the bad girl if mother and father are saying so. Is she so familiar with psychology? Most WOMEN feel partially guilty for being raped, that is what makes it so horrible, Mayu clearly is beyond that.

    Sexuality is regarded not simply as a part of the self limited to genitals, discrete behaviors, or biological aspects of reproduction, but is more properly understood as one component of the total personality that affects one's concept of personal identity and self-esteem.
    Source: Whitlock & Gillman, 1989.
AFFECTS... As I stated before she is NOT affected.

    Sexual victimization may profoundly interfere with and alter the development of attitudes toward self, sexuality, and trusting relationships during the critical early years of development.
    Source: Tsai & Wagner, 1984.
Critical early years. That for me includes the time when she met Kouta and the rest of EL characters.

    There is the clinical assumption that children who feel compelled to keep sexual abuse a secret suffer greater psychic distress than victims who disclose the secret and receive assistance and support.
    Source: Finkelhor & Browne, 1986.
She certainly does keep the secret. And when she reveals it ... I certainly WON'T call what she received than 'assistance' nor 'support'

Hell... that ends Mayu's topic for me. I hope for You too. Next post on Mayu I will answer the earliest on Friday... And perhaps even that not. Those articles... horrible.

Let's continue in some other mood.

@ Charn! How nice to see You BACKED OFF and just are encouraging people to actually BEAT ME Razz Razz

Hey... hey!! DON'T TAKE HIS WORDS TOO SERIOUS!! STOP APPROACHING!! STOP IT RIGHT NOW!! I WARN YOU!! I AM DESPERATE AND I WAN'T HESITATE TO USE IT!! /me kinda thinks he paraphrased this quote but hell... no time for it!!/ Wink

Seriously - Chanr was obviously joking, so give up and surrender from the very beginning You had no chances and of course I am genius and ....

OK. It never works anyway so I think only way is the hard way.

Next was....
oh... so many of You posted....

I will save You Joshua and You Gunman for now. I must reread Lady Rose Petals post, to see if I head not missed things about Mayu (let's have it over and out... ) and later I will have the pleasure of addressing Your post - I very much liked Your explanation Gunman, it gave me some minutes of thinking before I could take it apart. I will address those posts - since they are pure pleasure for my mind right now. And BTW. Joshua, thank You, I'm fine but tired and weary and also my ankle hurts a bit... on a positive side, I started my rehabilitation and there is a chance that in the end of march I can FINALLY use my new curving ski I bought RIGHT BEFORE the accident... so I'm very happy and very motivated... and because of motivation I worked kinda hard today. Anyway, enough on my ankle, it's not the topic You are interested here (especially Charn, he just wants to see me down for once in this debate ;P YOU MAY DREAM ON IT Wink). Thanks for asking Joshua, hope You are fine and well? I'm also happy You did that digging and came back, so please wait a bit. I wil reread all that and edit this post to answer You.

@ Charn - seriously I am asking here - is there sth I can do to help You? Sems that Your schedule got REALLY tight recently, and it's kinda wearing You out, not to mention severely cutting Your free time. I would like You to have more free time (for us Wink), and also be able to discuss EL with us... so if there is a way I can help, ask, ok?

for now - the end

[b] [u] First edit goes to Kaj: [u] [b]

Kaj - how nicely You have put that. I'm envious. I went to great lengths to say that, and You did it so effortlessly in one paragraph. I was very specific, and You just 'hit the nail in the head'. I'm impressed by that post, in which You answered Rose arguments on Mayu being homeless and perhaps more able than we both are giving her credid for.
TEACH ME THAT... Wink Next time I will write a post and take out just key sentences, no jokes, no examples, no comparisons, no laughs, no funny stories... Yeah. That will be Kaj's way. Wink Short and precise. Gotta try.
_________________
Tammo (aka Thomas)
STH = SomeTHing POV = Point Of View
-------GO---------------------READ -----------------------THOSE--------------------NOW------------
Useful Info ** Moderating related stuff ** My anime opinions ** Adorable quotes

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:14 am
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Kaj (#32327)
AnimeNfo Warrior

Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 599
Location: UK
 lol. I like your overwhelming strategy with the mammoth post and in depth research too. [/mutual moral boosting for team mate Razz]

Oh yea, the theory about how Lucy escapes intrigues me. I think it's possible that the director's fixed it so that Lucy escapes. But if so, there should have been reactions to it. Like "WTF! WHY ISN'T MY WEAPON WORKING!!!" Kurama should also have smelt a rat if the weapons had to switched since he was at the scene when Lucy makes her escape. And the sniper could have so easily ruined everything if he hadn't missed. If her escape was meant to be aided, it was poorly shown and planned.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:04 am
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger    Back to top 
Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)
AnimeNfo Review Moderator

Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 1763
Location: At work. Always at work. Always at Your service.
 Joshua - I hope this one wil live up to my reputation. I almost fell asleep due to being tired today, but some unfinished busines kept my awake Wink

Quote:
1. The diclonious appeared through evolution.

And their discovery?

Quote:
2.)Vectors are the invsible hands that they use to kill people and etc.


Not quite the answer I expected. You see - leaving out the degree of complicacy which is needed to STEER such thing (from biologist point of view it might require another brain - that is the sentence my friend who studies biology enlightened me with) it also somehow spreads out 'the virus' that means that even while some diclonius is unable to have children it still can spread the genes... or the virus? Hell - the explanations were unclear and very blurry.

Quote:

3.)I really don't know they hide their appearance and have the money to do so. But from my understanding they only wanted the diclonius who had the herediatary chromosomes to reproduce mre like them. They were doing all those test to see how strong they were and find out their origin because they still don't know according to the chief. He just says their has to be a Queen.


If they wanted dicloniuses to reproduce why not go find more of them? Have more babies? One or two incidents with 'escaped diclonius' and they are having several (if not more) children born dicloniuses thanks to vectors spreading the disease! Sh*t. Must stop calling it the disease, it's the virus because they were unable to name it any better in the show and stopped explaining when it got interesting. And one more thing - why not choose some genetic surgery, operation some biological experiments on those dicloniuses that were unnecessary. How did they dound out that Lucy is the one who HAS that chromosome? A LOT of unanswered questions here arise...
Kaj also pointed earlier some issues regarding 'the Queen' - if I know him he will get back to it, so Joshua I suggest You do the same.

[quote]
4.) The point is to do just that because the Chief wants to wipe out the entire human race and let diclonious rule the planet. that is why they want lucy because she is the purest of all the diclonious who can reproduce diclonious because all of them don't have that chromosome.
Quote:


Thre is about 8 diclonius in total. Males AND females. (based on what we see/hear in EL) So in order to ensure their world domination they are killing themselves off?? Kinda doesn't fit together. I think You meant sth else than it came out Wink
They do not know what is going on exactly - You pointed out - they do not know how Lucy has the ability to born babies (they never actually mention how they checked it either) - from what I remember they also did not try to make any steps to enter the chromosome into other dicloniuses, to make them 'pure' as Lucy is (in temrs of genetics, not ethics or morality ;P Wink).

Quote:

5.)The thing about it is that Lucy is the first one that they ever caught and after that more of them were popping up but they don't know that for certain that only happned in Lucy's case. But she is the only one they have to confirm this since all the rest were taken and if they didn't have the hereditary chromosoime then they were killed. How do you want them to act really when they are born they are practically tortured with all of those test that they run. In Nana's case she was given father figure and someone who she can look to for strenght and the others didn't have that but then again none of them had a chance.

Here You got off track a bit. Those experimented were suggested BECAUSE they were supposed to be so evil. BECAUSE they were so evil and bad such experiments were ok. EARLIER they are bad, THAN we have experiments and THAN we have Nana being so nice although she is badly beaten and practically toyed with.

I would not say Lucy is the first one. There are reports on accidents before, we can conclude that from some talks Kurama has in his flashbacks.
That sentence I do not understand:
Quote:
The scientist were only used one diclonious to classify them all but that was only to fullfill the Chiefs on purposes of re creating the world. We as people some time stereotype and that was the case here.

Scientist were using one diclonius to classify the species? Yes? And that was to help Chief to rule the world? Neutral I still don't get it. Please explain.

Quote:

6.) No one bothered because they were taken so quickly and they already had this bad rep and Lucy was the first that they found. Mind you their is a queen. I will admit that this is kind of half baked since they never did give any indication why was it that they only showed the people who were working at the diclonious research place had diclonious. the explain alittle something about it but I would have to re watch it.

It IS halbaked and I am glad You pointed it out. Smile It takes guts to do so, and it als oshows some respects to Your interlocutores (latin - means talk partners, conversation partner). Th Queen issue I am leaving to Kaj - he will probably nail it in the head as alwasy Wink good going Kaj! About babies - it was caused by the vectors of the diclonius who almost fled (the girl who was killed by the Chief's son, Ogura it was? Don't remember and too tired for checking Sad). She infilcted virus upon workers and than their children were diclonius - that also links to why I think Kurama is stupid not deep, but that I will address in a brand new post. Smile

The answer on 7th I take with no complaints, though I was hoping You will tell me why other don't have it with sth more than random evolution process. Still it's good answer. You have a twin Joshua? What's his name? HAve Your parents any trouble with differing You? Like who's who?
The same with question number nine. (Mambo number five Wink). I also take answer here, however read my comment on Mambo 8. Wink
Quote:

8.)Mariko is a third generation diclonious that is why she is so strong but she doesn't have the hereditary chromosome so she was initially suppose to be dead in the first place. When Lucy was caught their were plenty of them being born but as time went on the blood became less pure as well because it isn't as if nthey were mating with each other.

Let's take Your reasoning to a test.
Evolution creates diclonius first generationg (1GD for short). You say - it is Lucy, the Queen. Than 2 GD appeared... also on evolution's whim. Like Nana, or some others in the facility. After it some more dicloniuses were born, due to virus being spread. Like Mariko. Those are 3 GD.

You see, here is the tricky part. Evolution uses different pattern. First exemplum is a prototype. It works, another one appears, slightly modified, made a bit better. And another, better made, and so on and so on. In this case Your reasoning still does not answer those questions:
1) Why evolution decided to develop new feature out of humans, instead of making old ones better?
2) Why evolution suddenly came up with vectors? In our society and life-style vecotrs are not that usable. Evolution makes dominating parts better, or develops some features who makes Your survival rates and comfort-lives abilities higher and better.
3) Why second and third generaton is WORSE than first?
4) Why second generation is not born out of first??
5) Why first is so limited?
6) What with male dicloniuses - are they generation 0?
7) Why for them evolution had no vectors planned? Why only females got vectors? There MUST be some reason - in such cases evolution does not play random shots.
And so on...
Quote:
10.)I really don't know.
That's my favorite answer. It made me laugh today, and after reading the whole child abuse I did not felt like it. LOL Thank You for Your honesty Joshua. Thank You indeed.

Thomas i hope I gave you something to think. So let the debate continue.


It sure will. I will address the points You made on character, there are some good ones, so this post will be edited. Also I have not yet covered all the points RosePetals made, so the other post will be edited as well, or perhaps this one because it's newer. Well - good night eveyone, rest well and have some nice dreams FREE of Elfen Lied or whatever haunts You recently (I'm not haunted by any EL associations! Certainl not! ;P Wink).
I will be back tomorrow, and address Your doubts and arguments. This debate is great, I mean it here, and - thank You.
_________________
Tammo (aka Thomas)
STH = SomeTHing POV = Point Of View
-------GO---------------------READ -----------------------THOSE--------------------NOW------------
Useful Info ** Moderating related stuff ** My anime opinions ** Adorable quotes

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:41 am
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Caddberry (#27690)
AnimeNfo Forum Administrator


Joined: 27 Nov 2003
Posts: 12359
Location: Home.
 One day I'll read this thread.. LoL I seriously wish I had the time to contribute to it..

Anyway...

Dirty as stated double posting is against the rules of the forum which you should read.. They are linked in my signature.. Also read the FAQ if you have any questions.

I want to also say that things dont need to be brought to a personal level here.. Calling someones post psychobabble is getting close to that fine line of insulting.. Once ONE insult is flung it can turn a debate into a flame war.. This has been a TERRIFIC thread in the way that it has not escalated into a flame war, but stayed on a mature level.. I expect it to stay that way.
_________________

Obey the forum Rules!
Find answers to your questions in the Forum FAQ

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:38 am
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail    Back to top 
dirty (#71854)
AnimeNfo Peasant


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 20
Caddberry (#27690) wrote:
One day I'll read this thread.. LoL I seriously wish I had the time to contribute to it..

Anyway...

Dirty as stated double posting is against the rules of the forum which you should read.. They are linked in my signature.. Also read the FAQ if you have any questions.

I want to also say that things dont need to be brought to a personal level here.. Calling someones post psychobabble is getting close to that fine line of insulting.. Once ONE insult is flung it can turn a debate into a flame war.. This has been a TERRIFIC thread in the way that it has not escalated into a flame war, but stayed on a mature level.. I expect it to stay that way.


Yeah sorry about the double post,,,

It was never aimed to be a personal attack, as Tammo mentioned I agreed with his initial sentiments on child psychology [I am studying a Bachelor of Education which covers the developmental aspects of children's minds], I will refrain from using the term to avoid upsetting some people Smile

This is how I understood the definition of the term from www.dictionary.com

psy·cho·bab·ble (sk-bbl)
n.

Psychological jargon, especially that of psychotherapy.

It appears your interpretation is different to that?

Hope this clears things up Cool

I'll rebutt your comments in abit Tammo Wink


PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:04 am
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Caddberry (#27690)
AnimeNfo Forum Administrator


Joined: 27 Nov 2003
Posts: 12359
Location: Home.
dirty (#71854) wrote:
Caddberry (#27690) wrote:
One day I'll read this thread.. LoL I seriously wish I had the time to contribute to it..

Anyway...

Dirty as stated double posting is against the rules of the forum which you should read.. They are linked in my signature.. Also read the FAQ if you have any questions.

I want to also say that things dont need to be brought to a personal level here.. Calling someones post psychobabble is getting close to that fine line of insulting.. Once ONE insult is flung it can turn a debate into a flame war.. This has been a TERRIFIC thread in the way that it has not escalated into a flame war, but stayed on a mature level.. I expect it to stay that way.


Yeah sorry about the double post,,,

It was never aimed to be a personal attack, as Tammo mentioned I agreed with his initial sentiments on child psychology [I am studying a Bachelor of Education which covers the developmental aspects of children's minds], I will refrain from using the term to avoid upsetting some people Smile

This is how I understood the definition of the term from www.dictionary.com

psy·cho·bab·ble (sk-bbl)
n.

Psychological jargon, especially that of psychotherapy.

It appears your interpretation is different to that?

Hope this clears things up Cool

I'll rebutt your comments in abit Tammo Wink


I always thought of psychobabble (and I've always heard it used) as a rather derogatory statement.. Its really not that harsh of a statement.. I just didnt want anyone to get angered over it and things to get out of hand.. (Kind of just reminding everyone to remain cool while trying to kill each other with facts and opinions in the great debate) ~_^
_________________

Obey the forum Rules!
Find answers to your questions in the Forum FAQ

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:35 am
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail    Back to top 
Silent Blue (#71774)
AnimeNfo Peasant


Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 14
dirty (#71854) wrote:
Kaj (#32327) wrote:
Okay, so it would seem that her homelessness wasn't explicitly mentioned. Even so my point STILL stands as they had to make it so obvious before her homelessness was revealed.


Yes your point STILL stands for YOU, since you think the directors motive is to include Mayu's back story to make her homelessness obvious to yourself, while for others like myself her initial appearances portrayed some ambiguity about her character to suggest some underlying issues,,,

Quote:
There are a lot of homeless people near where I live. They are so identifiable no matter what they are doing, walking around or sitting in a corner of a street. Mayu was not one of those characters. She and the puppy both lacks the appearance of homeless beings. Although there was a reason why the puppy wasn't so scruffy,


Fair enough that is how you see a homeless person.

Quote:
I can't see any reason for Mayu looking so normal and acting so normal (apart from the scenes that they suddenly remember that she was supposed to be homeless, so threw in a few scenes of her suffering). Strange that they were so graphic about her sexual abuse then when it comes to homelessness, but not so eager to portray this side animations wise.


Sometimes when you're suffering rather than wallow in self pity you try to get on with life? When you are in Mayu's position let's see what you do eh? Wink That is the director's medium of informing us why Mayu is the elusive, stuttering girl she is,,,yes it could have been alternatively portrayed but obviously the director chose to hijack our emotions to harness our sympathy towards Mayu and to maintain the depressive tone of the series.

Quote:
I can't remember anything about the shed though. Can't rewatch that again as I don't have it anymore. Even if I did, I'm not sure I want to bother watching it again except maybe try and find a couple of specific scenes that I'd be looking for. But, anyway, yes there were points where you can clearly see she her homeless side, but she also frequently acts out of character. Bit like Bando. Sometimes he acts like a commando, but the problem arises because he also frequenctly acts like a dumbass, not like a commando. As for trying to disguise her homelessness, well, it's not really the easiest thing in the world to hide. Again, you just need to take a look at the homeless people down my street to see how hard it is for them to fit in like normal people. It's not just the way they act.


Nobody's forcing you to rewatch,,,but while engaging in a discussion it is credible to at least know the basics,,,

What do you consider a normal person dare I ask? Is a homeless person not normal to you? Are they not considered human beings?

Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694) wrote:
MWAHAHAHAHA
I got them all!! I pretended to be nice and now they are INSIDE my trap!
MWAHAHAHAHA

Smile Wink

So. MAYU. You guys have picked VERY unfortunate topic to argue about.
/me smiles devilishly/
You see, with Mayu there is just this one little problem. She is TRULY not affected. Child her age, forced to live on the streets will not be so brightful, because it will realize how terryfying the world can be. It will not be so trusting, because it's trust have been BADLY damaged, by the person who should NEVER EVER have done so - her own mother. She will not be so ready to help a SWEARING MAN, because he will remind him of her abusive stepfather. Yet that is ALL Mayu does. She IS cheerful, VERY polite, immensely nice and seemingly happy. Let me quote You a fragment of my review on Mayu:

I agree with most of your psychobabble, but when your trust is broken do you forever never trust again? Perhaps not but then again you are already a cynical 35 year old male who sees the world only as a miserable place Wink whereas she is a 10 year old girl still with alot of self discovery and life experience ahead. You can't say for sure you know how long she has been homeless for and over time people forgive/forget and the pain of betrayal subsides.

Yes a swearing man pissing out blood from his eyes and missing some limbs,,,it is not a typical situation so you are placed with an ethical choice,,,somebody's life is at stake, does your conscience not take a stab at you and tear apart those emotional safety guards? You are human aren't you? Donate to charity Wink

Hmm cheerful? I wouldn't go that far, around Wanta she is happy but generally she is not what I consider cheerful,,,more as a person content with the temporal equilibrium of their disposition.

in my review I wrote:

GIRL WITH A DOG
Well... she's a girl and she has a dog. She's HOMELESS. So... she's a bright, cheerful, happy, cute, truly 'kawaii' HOMELESS girl with a dog and black hair. Bright cheerful, cute, happy STARVING HOMELESS...


You know - if anime strives to be dark, when it touches so severe topics like child abuse... then why the hell they make this girl so damn happy? Why is she smiling all the time? She does not know where to sleep. She does not know what to eat. She has PLENTY of worries and she is (THAT"S THE DEAL PEOPLE) 10 years old. What wilpower does she have? She should be affected by her past - she clearly is not. I would tell You first this IS a character with substance IF she would not have that past. Why? It would make her more real for me. Let's take some other posts by me:

How odd you mention the anime striving to be dark and you mention happy as well,,,but sadness and happiness exist in a dichotomous relationship and clearly how do you define darkness without the 'lightness'. Mayu has never been "so damn happy" and yes she may have had an unwrranted unfortunate past but if you want to live and mope about it rather than forget and move onto better things then shouldn't child suicide be on the cards? Her home life caused betrayal, sexual abuse and sadness, however she found serenity at the ocean and friendship in Wanta.

earlier, I wrote:

- when I looked at Mayu DURING the abuse motive I felt sorry for her, her mother reaction made me feel the betrayal, I understood what she went through (not the whole thing but I got the idea).

- when I looked at her at the cemetery I laughed and thought what a cheerful and resolute cute little one! I really like You girl! Quick thinking and sharp wit! The same was when she did so great with Bando "I'm in a pinch right now." Smile

- and then was the third situation - starving, homeless, child betrayed by those, who should never have done so - parents, especially mother.

So what do we have here?
A child who will be broken by hunger, without hope in life and feeling depressed and unsecure by the one's she trusted the most, forced to stealing or begging. When I was little kid I got lost for almost whole day. I remember what one feels than. Other day, I run away from home saying to myself - I will never return there. I remember how being alone in the world made me feel - without home to go to sleep.

I both of those situations I managed to get some food. By my own. But I was terrified by thought of sleeping outside, I was terrified of solitude. And I know she got it worse. [added] And for the food I almost begged. Being polite did not worked.[end addition]

Her cheerful, polite, cute attitude makes You close an eye on this. So why add this if You are making viewer forget it?

She is a kid for God's sake! How did she managed? How did she persevered such hardships BEFORE Kouta took her in? She never broke, just once she wavered - when the puppy was taken away - and she just gave him like that - did not do a thing - and don't start here with - it was better for him cause it was clearly shown afterwards she says it just to feel better and comfort herself.

I just give up with so many inconsistences - I made myself see her in a normal way - like Shinobu-chan from Love Hina. She had problems, Keitarou fixed them. All. I said to myself: Pretend she is Shinobu. And so I did. An here lies the trick - if she were good character, deeply drawn, I could not have done so. Still - she's very much likeable - I admit that.


Well it shows you are a pessimist and your own experiences have likened your disbelief of how Mayu should respond,,,sure it's most likely a person in her situation would be contemplating suicide,,,I'm just as cynical as you are but I can see the optomistic disposition,,,Mayu made a critical life choice when she left her home and she gathers some hope from not having to be sexually abused,,,there are two great motivators in life hope and fear,,,and fear decided for her,,,she has found a life friend in Wanta and that is good reason enough since it is evident that Wanta brings Mayu a bond of friendship,,,take a look around you,,,the bond of friendship is often the minimal necessity that alot of people are living in this world today.

"I was terrified of solitude." Wink

Combine By Caddberry



Cool YOU GO BABY !!!

Twisted Evil WELL DONE !!!

Cool You're in my list of friends now.

Maybe I'll get some more time to post a proper response. Till then I salute you all.

sincerely yours,
Silent Blue

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:46 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger    Back to top 
CyBeR (#47560)
AnimeNfo Overlord


Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 1325
Location: Eternal Purgatory
 Oh God...I'm reading more around here them my personal lecture...So Mayu...let's see on this one:

I was left kinda awed when this character made the scene...I didn't realise she was a homeless person at first...plus that she had that dog(I somehow feared that Lucy would kill it...would've been a good part in the anime yhough). Throughout the anime I just saw that character as part of Kouta's would-be family but never as she was depicted or the way the character should've worked. She didn't seem a homeless person except for the moment the story demanded her to be...
That psichological part of the character is something i can cope with...it didn't seem to me as a grave error from the producers. An abussed child has always 3 or so posibilities in life such as compeltely shuting himself off for fear of further emotional harm, shutting away the fear and even blanking it out and moving on, suicide, etc. I have seen cases of desperate persons in moods that I wouldn't see myself in in the brightest of days.
So I consider Mayu's attitude towards life as rather natural...despite the abuse she suffered, trying to forget what had hurt her and moving on with her life can also be considered a sign of adulthood. Children that went through hardship early in their lifes musn't necesarily be considere broken dolls...some of these kids mature earlier from need...
Or, isn't her general attitude the attitude of a rational adult that went through hardship and managed to get rid of it?
I'll bring an example from another anime: Neon genesis Evangelion and mainly the character Katsuragi Misato(I need to see this anime again...the 8th time)...for those that haven't seen the anime, Misato is the only survivor from the epicenter of the Second Impact, a cataclism that whiped out more that 1/4 of humanity. She is in a state of shock for a while but when she recovered, she becomes execively cheerful and out-going.
In the entire of Elfen Lied I consider Mayu as one of the better characters next to Lucy.

I'm running low on time so I'll get back on the matter!

Ja ne!
_________________
"We are the undead lovers. Sleep, only sleep. No need for hunting, no need for haunting.
Feed each other with each other's soul.
Just like leeches off one another...to devour the self, to leave the body, exchanging our pleasure and pain in a forever repeating circle
Making love
Until all shall die out and we shall be dragged out of our eternal grave by the wrath of the END, judged and burnt by the light of the Supernova...we shall revive in another world"

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:02 pm
  View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger    Back to top 
Kaj (#32327)
AnimeNfo Warrior

Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 599
Location: UK
 I need to go do something so I'll keep this short and simple. The difference with Misato and Mayu is that we can see Misato went through a significant transitional period of "getting over it". With Mayu I didn't feel as though she was really struggling mentally. It just felt too easy. For me, not enough was shown of her trying to get over it. She just kind of... did. Without much effort.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:26 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger    Back to top 
Rosepetals (#42525)
AnimeNfo Site Staff


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 6171
Location: Nowhere and Everywhere
Quote:
was left kinda awed when this character made the scene...I didn't realise she was a homeless person at first...plus that she had that dog(I somehow feared that Lucy would kill it...would've been a good part in the anime yhough). Throughout the anime I just saw that character as part of Kouta's would-be family but never as she was depicted or the way the character should've worked. She didn't seem a homeless person except for the moment the story demanded her to be...
That psichological part of the character is something i can cope with...it didn't seem to me as a grave error from the producers. An abussed child has always 3 or so posibilities in life such as compeltely shuting himself off for fear of further emotional harm, shutting away the fear and even blanking it out and moving on, suicide, etc. I have seen cases of desperate persons in moods that I wouldn't see myself in in the brightest of days.
So I consider Mayu's attitude towards life as rather natural...despite the abuse she suffered, trying to forget what had hurt her and moving on with her life can also be considered a sign of adulthood. Children that went through hardship early in their lifes musn't necesarily be considere broken dolls...some of these kids mature earlier from need...
Or, isn't her general attitude the attitude of a rational adult that went through hardship and managed to get rid of it?


Cyber made exactly the point I wanted to make (and re-emphasized one that I've stated several times), I really liked his argument.

@Kaj: it's true that Elfen Lied didn't devote a lot of time to Mayu's grief period, but I thought it was adequately done. It may just be a factor of personal taste; I still respect your opinion, though.
_________________

"I am not sure why I am so attracted to roses...but roses are romantic. Just like the flower, my music is on the borderline between reality and escapism"
-Rie Fu

Reviews
Remember to read the Rules and FAQ.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:06 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger 
ICQ Number 
   Back to top 
Kaj (#32327)
AnimeNfo Warrior

Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 599
Location: UK
 Fair enough. It seems like it's kind of getting to the point where it's all boiling down to opinions... AGAIN. Pretty much I was unhappy with the way, as cyber put it "She didn't seem a homeless person except for the moment the story demanded her to be... " In eva it was mentioned somewhere that it was funny the way Misato's so outgoing now considering her past. I think I would have liked to see something similar here just to assure me they didn't just forget about it. But anyway, Unless someone's got something different they to want say, this topic is probably near exhausted.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:58 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger    Back to top 
Rosepetals (#42525)
AnimeNfo Site Staff


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 6171
Location: Nowhere and Everywhere
 haha, LOL Laughing Kaj, I think that when it comes to debates, there are always opinions, this thread could go on and on forever with different ideals and assertions about EL, but at least we're learning more about the series as we go along. But my goal now is the same as it was when I first came into the thread and in other debates I've participated in (which number very few)---I only want to allow you to see my perspective and my interpretations, not change your opinion Wink
_________________

"I am not sure why I am so attracted to roses...but roses are romantic. Just like the flower, my music is on the borderline between reality and escapism"
-Rie Fu

Reviews
Remember to read the Rules and FAQ.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:23 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address MSN Messenger 
ICQ Number 
   Back to top 
Tritonus (#1494)
AnimeNfo Peasant


Joined: 27 Apr 2002
Posts: 12
 Re: Elfen Debate! great anime or just piece of crud?(spoiler
Kaj (#32327) wrote:
She was a murdering monster before she found out Kouta had lied to her. Seems to me her diclonus nature just took over. The split personality came from the shock to the head when she got hit by the bullet. I think it was a new personality, a fresh, innocent one untainted by the diclonus nature, as though she was just born again, that's why I think it can't talk. I don't think it was because it hadn't talked since child hood.


Yes, she was murdering. But she wasn't a monster. After the death of the mockers she were doubtful towards other humans. She was doubtful especially towards Kouta. But she found out she could enjoy herself with him. And felt she could leave the painful memories of her beloved puppy and confess her feelings to Kouta. But then her murderous side reckons her and she tries to hush it. After Kouta had lied to her there was nothing left of her humanity. You may be right about the shock to the head. In the end she's caught in the middle: between the innocent fresh side and her old murderous side.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:00 am
Last edited by Tritonus (#1494) on Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:10 am; edited 1 time in total
  View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger    Back to top 
dirty (#71854)
AnimeNfo Peasant


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 20
 Re: Too many Re's that it's not even REEEEEdiculous
Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694) wrote:
Hello there people.

I would like to tell You Dirty, that double posting goes against the rules - so next time put all in one post.


I apologise to yourself and the rest of the forum community for my selfish unlawful act will thou forgiveth me? Cool


Mr. Tammo wrote:
That post may seem acidic at times (because I treated Your points fairly - APPRECIATE IT Razz - and went to read

several things on child-abuse... not very nice lecture, I assure You Sad), so I will warn You here, and tell You, that I respect

Your opinion, and while I want You to understand mine, I'm striving to see Yours as well. Hope I will achieve at both. Wink Anyway

- I want You to know - no offense whatsoever meant and/or intended - and gosh - NEVER AGAIN - horrible topic.



When topics border on sadochism and masochism they are never light topics and child abuse + Elfen Lied are examples that clearly

fall into these categories. I return the love to you too Tammo, since you have been fair in your comments and supportive in your

reasons Smile. I am a person who likes to look at other people's perspectives to envision what they are experiencing enabling them to

formulate coherent understanding on particular situations and this is why I too attempt to see your views as you write them. I am

hard to offend so it's all good,,,

Mr. Tammo wrote:
dirty (#71854) wrote:

I agree with most of your psychobabble, but when your trust is broken do you forever never trust again? Perhaps

not but then again you are already a cynical 35 year old male who sees the world only as a miserable place Wink whereas she is a 10

year old girl still with alot of self discovery and life experience ahead. You can't say for sure you know how long she has been

homeless for and over time people forgive/forget and the pain of betrayal subsides.


Psychobabble... I will overlook it since You said I agree, although for me it has _very_ negative meaning.
Read again what I wrote and what You did. You gleefully said that she will trust again more easier because she was betrayed while

beeing young.
For me that is PRECISELY the reason she won't do so that easily.


Sorry to hear that you reacted offensively, I had posted earlier regarding the matter in a response to Caddbery, I

respect that you were able to ingest the context of the situation and decide it wasn't a personal insult as I had intended.

PS. Gleefully is not in my personality, thank you come again.


Mr. Tammo wrote:
And no matter her age, RAPE is sth women/girls/children tend not to forget easily.
Have You ever interacted with someone who was raped while being young? She may be young, have a lot before her and all that... but

honestly, there are some things one cannot so EASILY brush aside. And she forgets it almost completely. Psychology states that

people have their own fears. They have to battle them, and fears return, they tend to return suddenly, when people are not

prepared. She has no such thing.


It's nice to generalise here, and use SHOCK tactics like RAPE, yes I doubt

anybody would forget rape easily but rememebering a terpid occurrence in life informs your actions. Well it's your assumption that

Mayu forgets easily and mine that she simply hasn't forgotten but emotionally barred it. Rememeber the "flashback" happens as

Mayu is at the beach a place of "sanctuary" where she feels safe with Wanta in her arms and she ponders and juxtaposes the

destitution of her past [sexual abuse, betrayal] with the goodness of the present [kind Kouta, Yuka, new home]. Everybody has

fears yes, some more than others, and when has Mayu had to battle any fears,,,oh yeah since Kouta is pastoral towards her maybe

Yuka might come and rape her? *sigh*

Mr. Tammo wrote:
The flashback is shown once. And then it is cutted out. You still have not given my any examples on where did the story

turned that way because of Mayu's past? What influence it had on her? None of my questions are answered. Instead You pointed out

that perhaps a 10 years old girl, who first time in her life was so badly betrayed and hurt on body and mind, is able to shut it

all down so perfectly like a grown up trained by years of experience.


I'm not sure what questions are you asking or do you mean the rhetorical ones? She is a kid for godsake? You my

buddy underestimate kids, come into a classroom [I'm studying to become a primary school teacher] and open your eyes + ears. Maybe

you have never had the opportunity to experience youthful maturation and also the series is providing the most barest of insight

into Mayu's past,,,if they were to explain more they would make an OVA? Twisting my words nice tactic, I have never said she shut

it down perfectly,,,yes it takes training,,,when Mayu looks at the flashback she is reflecting on her current position and

thinking there are straws of hope to clutch onto, even though she started with a painful past there is a brighter future.

P.S. Mayu is 13 turning 14 she's actually a teenager

Mr. Tammo wrote:
I suggest You to read books on Inquisition and how they broke people with pain and betrayal, or rahter BETRAYAL and pain.

One of the best tactiques to break people is to make them feel deserted, alone, without support from those who were sure to give

them such support. For Mayu such persons are her parents.


Thanks for the suggestion have you got some titles, authors for me? Wink

Mr. Tammo wrote:
And I can say that she was homeless for around a year. That's mentioned in series somewhere. During that year, when we take

a look on her memories in this ONE flashback (in 13 episodes one flashback.... that speaks VOLUMES on importancy of the thing) she

has nothing so nice or special except the dog to happen to her. Yet she has clean clothes all the time (probably some kind of

autocleaning device well hidden, that is why she needs only one skirt/blouse). Those clothes are not even scratched, not to

mention worn out (probably, not only autocleaning but even autorepairing whoah!).
And one more thing. You are turning the whole thing upside down. I said - she would not be so trusting. You are making it into: "

she will NEVER EVER trust ANYBODY". That was not my point. My point was she trusted way too quick. It's kinda like: hell,

whatever, last guy raped me but perhaps this one is ok. This was kinda WEIRD. Neutral


Umm where did it say she was homeless for a year got a reference point? One flashback cause this is Elfen Lied and

not the Destitution of Mayu's past. Well ever noticed the characters in most series never change their clothes. To be fair you

should at least see that even Nyuu/Lucy, Kouta, Yuka all change their clothes and only Mayu does not. Well you are reading the

context of my question wrong, i'm illustrating that there is a point no matter how hurt you are they you will resume trust, it's

part of being human, Kouta doesn't come across as wanting to abuse Mayu, that's the impression we get and she has no reason not to

trust him, remember trust here, is an individual bond shared between two people. On the contrary Mayu's perception of her

stepfather was completely opposite, directing her to do things, with a twisted face. You don't trust many people then is that a

fair assumption of your character? Let's be honest here.

So what does the young boy who is raped by a man do? Is he scared of all men too and himself when he becomes one?


Mr. Tammo wrote:
About Bando lying on the beach and bleeding; life at stake etc. SURE MAN. That is always what kid will think at first.

Because young kids are so familiar with such topics, at ten they know exatlcy what death is, they have seen it hundreds of times,

and they are not scared anymore, after all what can scare a kid like that who never ever have seen blood coming out with such

pressure (BANDO HAD ARTERIA'S OPENED - the blood was practically GUSHING OUT). And yes, such kid is perfect medic at the time,

after all, when You are homeless You always carry on with You a CLEAN HANDKERCHIEF, white as a snow and probably desinfected as

well - we can trust the creators on that one, I assume, since we can trust them on such detail as autorepair and autocleaning in

clothes than the hell why not a CLEAN WHITE handkerchief! And while it has such handkerchiefs it also happens to know how to stop

blood coming out and bandage a torn limb yes... that is precisely what 10 years old girl must know while leaving on the street.

After all it's a common rutine in Japan to find shredded man on a daily jogging route. For Mayu it was probably fourth time that

week. Silly me, I wondered why she was so good at it. Neutral Hope You liked my donation Dirty ;p Wink


Funny thing is I have actually been part of a some studies relating to this specific incidence, and it does question

your ethics. Mayu is 13 turning 14, sure she definately starts to understand death. You mean arteries, perfect medic is you

juicing up the fact that all she did was torniquet [www.dictionary.com if you don't know] his arm which is common sense,,,there

was no bandaging my friend, rewatch the episode Wink


Mr. Tammo wrote:
Cheerful for me is person full of cheers (kinda simplifying it here, I know). And that is what she always doing. She cheers

for Bando - wait, everything will be all right, I will call an ambulance - she cheers on Nana, she cheers on Wanta, she cheers on

this lady from a bakery... She even tries to stop Nana and Lucy from fighting. Hell I dunno why, and how she sees the vectors is

also kind of mystery. If I had seen the tombs being shredded apart my instinct of survivalist (any animal and human has it, Mayu

is the exception - hey! Dirty! That is Your point in the trusting issue! She hasn't normal instincts human has! Silly me! ;P Wink)

would have told me sth along this: hey man... why go there? look at the sea, isn't it beautiful? Go there! And if there would be

no sea in 50 km radius and I would have stumbled with that thought in my mind my instinct quickly would have pointed out: see? You

can go see it, and such long trip is kinda interesting! And it would be convincing as hell just to achieve me going NOT THERE.

Because there is DANGEROUS. But she thinks like a cutie from Japanese ideals - so she HAS to stop the fight, why? Because fight

is bad.



A cheerful person would at least laugh and says alot of positive happy descriptive things, Can you please screen

capture or reference a point where Mayu is laughing? Mayu never says "everything will be alright" she just contacts the ambulance

something anyone should do for a person in in physical danger. A more fitting description would be content rather than cheerful.

Where does Mayu see vectors? When Nana demonstrates to Mayu Nana can see the vectors, Mayu only see the objects floating in the

air [you're deluding, take a break in between replying Wink]. When you see unusual things occuring in life like most other humans it

aroses your curiosity which often overtakes your instincts of survival. Look at the Indian Ocean Tsunami disaster, I have video

clips of people standing watching the waves, before being torn apart by the Tsunami,,,

"Even when I'm happy, only tears come out" [quoted by a cheerful person according to Mr. Tammo].


dirty wrote:
How odd you mention the anime striving to be dark and you mention happy as well,,,
Mr. Tammo wrote:
Sure it is odd. It is certainly SUITING together here. Because after all it is Elfen Lied we are talking about. That is the

problem EL has. It mixed those tw things (dark mood and light humour) and it mixed it badly.


You mentioned darkness and I merely endeavoured to explain, again, that darkness [sadness] is only put into

perspective by it's polar opposite of lightness [happiness] and that is the objective of the series, you originally talked about:



Mr. Tammo wrote:
You know - if anime strives to be dark, when it touches so severe topics like child abuse... then why the hell they make

this girl so damn happy?


Mixed bad or not that's your call however it is necessary that happiness aspects be included to justify the depth of

the sadness.

Mr. Tammo wrote:
While You quoted most of my post You did not adress it almost at all. :/
There are more motivations in life than those two, but let's simplify it along the lines of Your reasoning. What You said has

hands and legs (saying from my country - means the same as has sense Wink). However. There is nothing like You said SHOWN in the

anime. Not a trace that Mayu is thinking like that, not a hint in a dialogue that she is thinking about her past at all, not to

mention such specific things. When she is in trouble she does not try to take strength fro mhe decision - most anime characters do

- in Elfen Lied it is also a noticeable trend, so why exclude her out of it if she has such decision?
That is main point You and Rose have in common. You are pointing POSSIBILITIES. And saying that the series were likeable because

it has given You those (that's mainly You, not RosePetals Wink). SURE. I can ALSO point out SEVERAL possibilities. And they will not

be likeable at all. They can be in fact VERY disgusting, like Mayu secretly hoping for repetition of abuse, because she found it

nice after a while (probably abusive stepfather wanted her to keep it a secret so he gave her lots of presents) and she expects it

from Kouta, so she agrees to live with him on such short notice. Probability of it? VERY LOW. But it is not shown in the anime,

and it is possible. So I can argue along that line. I just do not think that we need here to take EVERY possibility into account.
And You are doing that. You are arguing based on assumption that she chose to 'carry on without moping' even while You KNOW

what is the MOST PROBABLE option for her to do and how it differs entirely.


I should have edited it out as I will do from now Smile
Yes there are more I never said there were only two, read carefully. It may well yes be a directing flaw or also the fact the

series is limited to 13 episodes and thus an OVA for Mayu would be necessary, as a consequence we are left dabbling with the

possibilities however my possibilities are noted from evidence demonstrated in the show. Undoubtedly moping would have occurred

and may still be occuring we are not shown this.

dirty wrote:
Well it shows you are a pessimist and your own experiences have likened your disbelief of how Mayu should

respond,,,sure it's most likely a person in her situation would be contemplating suicide,,,I'm just as cynical as you are but I

can see the optomistic disposition,,,Mayu made a critical life choice when she left her home and she gathers some hope from not

having to be sexually abused,,,there are two great motivators in life hope and fear,,,and fear decided for her,,,she has found a

life friend in Wanta and that is good reason enough since it is evident that Wanta brings Mayu a bond of friendship,,,take a look

around you,,,the bond of friendship is often the minimal necessity that alot of people are living in this world today.


You actually see her being content with life and Wanta following her life with her abusive step-father, why did she

leave? She feared. Unlike your sick suggestions, there is no evidence to support them at all in the show but of course they are

possibilites.

P.S. The friendship with Mayu + Wanta is suggestive of the consequences of Lucy + the puppy, where with Mayu + Wanta they were

there for each other, both alone and lonely, Lucy's situation introduces a contrary experience where she lost hope when she lost

her only friend. The results are clearly contrasting.


Mr. Tammo wrote:
Another point Dirty seems to share with Lady of Nineteen Falling Petals of Roses. You are making Mayu kinda special,

because of giving her credit of a mature girl, while still allowing her the simplicity and behaviour of an ordinary child. I think

she is NONE of the above.
Decide how You want to see her. Either treat her as a child, or as a grown-up, don't switch in-between.

Let's agree on some points here.
1) She IS a child.
2) ...



That is a rather simple way of looking at it. Are you condensing the character so she will suit your already

stereotyped and constructed perceptions of Child/Adult? Mayu is 13 and turns 14 in the series, which in most countries denotes she

is a young adult and begins if not is already considering situations in grey rather than black and white. So I think it is rather

valid that Mayu in her maturation phase is allowed to experience and exhibit actions of a child and an adult.

And no I don't agree on your point above Wink


Mr. Tammo wrote:
Seriously saying I think that You tend to OVERRATE her maturity. Of course it is possible that she is so strongwilled. Of

course it is possible that she does what I deem unreal for kids. However look above - possibility for that is low. What I am

basing my words on. I had little experience in working with kids, but I have friends and colleagues who have similar experience as

well - including working with difficult children (pathological families, broken families, psychical-illness, retarded kids). I

know some backgrounds for some cases. I don't want to declare myself authority here. My experience was short as I stated before

and it was with normal kids - but my relative for three months once a week I spent 2 hours helping. My other relative WORKS with

retarded kids. And she used to work with so-called bad kids (bad - meaning broken families, pathological parents and stuff).
So I heard 'a few' stories. And in the middle of writing I wnet and searched in the google for "child abuse official statistics".

And read a bit as well.


And I think you underrate her maturity,,,but unlike yourself you seem to think it is OK to pigeonhole a young adult

into tacit guidelines of how one should behave based on age whereas I think at age 14 Mayu has free roam of both the child and

adult realm.


Mr. Tammo wrote:
So let's have some statistics so You will deal with the POSSIBILITY here.
And I tried to point those, who are SOMEHOW related with Mayu - still - I read some brochures and did not really wanted to delve

MOR in the matter... Sad My good mood is ruined nevertheless.
My comments are colored.


I've had a quick gander at your statistics which are all fine and dandy but you have to rememeber though a statistic

might state 95% of people, how do you deal with the 5% they have to be accounted for,,,especially in the world of show business

there are alot of characters who are unbelivably unreleastic but that's what they do to keep the show exciting after all we don't

want to see too many everyday 'normal' things. In saying that I don't think Mayu is as unrealistic as you claim to be,,,that is my

perspective and for you that would obviously deteriorate your appreciation of the character unlike for myself.

I agree with CyBeR's sentiments on Mayu have a read there and see what you think.

Now I must return to my assignment on the psychology of young children's counting, we shall exchange text in the future Mr. Tammo

Smile

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 8:00 am
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)
AnimeNfo Review Moderator

Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 1763
Location: At work. Always at work. Always at Your service.
 Hello everyone, hope You are all right.


First one correction. I was wrong about Mayu's age, I must admit it - I checked, seems she is 13. So I will readress some of my opinions, cause obviously while You were saying about Mayu's maturity You meant maturity of 13years old, while I meant 10 years. 'Dirty' - credit for bringing that up goes to You.


My Lady - I kept You waiting for long, please forgive my rudeness.

rosepetals19 (#42525) wrote:

@ Tammo

I have a few counterarguments for you..... Very Happy

Quote:

1. Characters should evoke some feelings - people should hate them or love them to not care about them is the worst option

2. Characters should evoke feelings by who they are or what they do, like real people do, only then are they considered REAL


I agree with the first to a certain extent (sometimes character basis is not just of a like/hate relationship, you can be somewhere in the middle)....not so much the second.


You are right here I was responding in a hurry so I did not said fully hat I meant - 'shortcutting' it instead. And about reality - yes, partly, and no - partly. There are some set of rules we can define and agree on. Those rules are coming from culture we were raised in. You will not think 'it was real' if I tell You a story on how I greeted an European person on a street and he started greeting me by groveling at my feet, because it it unreal for those rules. While there CAN be exceptions it is not very likely. That is what I am reffering here. If a character is shown as an exception - make some time in the movie/anime/whatever to show the backstory behind it. In that case it is not so.

rosepetals19 (#42525) wrote:

I shan't BS you, but I will provide a reasoning to why I think Mayu is one of the few characters with substance in Elfen Lied.


My deep sentiments for that - You have won my affection (as You did not do it earlier Wink) for being the first one here to do it. Smile

rosepetals19 (#42525) wrote:

We meet Mayu as a struggling homeless girl trying to make it on her own; she collects the bread scraps at the shop in order to feed herself to live--is that realistic? Yes from an outside perspective looking in, she has the will to live and to make ends meet as an individual. She ran away from home, knowing to a degree that her life there was hard and painful...she had a perspective that things in her life could change...she might be unideally optimistic in some senses, but not on the whole.


Scrapbreads are one example - I agree on.

rosepetals19 (#42525) wrote:

You mention she's happy, cheerful most of the time...not from what I saw. Think about when she was taking care of the puppy, and how the owner treated her so coldly because she was "filthy"...she cried then, feeling lonely, without a companion and feeling rejected because of who she was. I think the background we have of her past (rejection from her mother, for example, in terms of the disbelief of her father's abuse; and her father's blatant rejection of her) impacts her reaction here. She tries to ask the owner if she can see the puppy again, but when the owner denies, she doesn't try...she feels as if she can't change the other person's opinion. She lacks self-esteem, no doubt an impact from her abused past.


Owner case is not so simple. First of all, we have this 'dirty' problem here, was she dirty or was she not? Even not knowing that I do not think is a good example to discuss - because if Mayu knew she was dirty, than that probably would affect her reaction giving the words of the owner some edge and weight, while if she would NOT be dirty it wood have TAKEN some edge and weight. So I suggest that this example will be skipped in terms of 'abuse past impacting Mayu's present'.

rosepetals19 (#42525) wrote:

I don't feel the creators motives were manipulation with her character; yes, she was abused as a child--the graphic nature of it makes it all the more impactful...real in terms of the type of abuse and we can see her father violating her, physically in terms of the act, emotionally with the physicality of Mayu's expressions. From an artistic perspective, her innocence serves a purpose...to show the contrast of all the hardships she experienced. It might not be realistic that rape/abused victims have the personality traits that Mayu has prior to the abuse...but I must say that you're generalizing her character here.


That I will address in explanatory part of the e-mail. Lower.

rosepetals19 (#42525) wrote:

Indubitibly, the abuse is a damnable act, one that anyone would expect a sense of loss (depression perhaps), grief, and association of pain, yet individuals have their own sense of coping with hardship. I think I mentioned this before, but Mayu's an individual...you can't apply the laws of majority to her minority as a character. What you sense as realistic seems to rely on what you see the majority of the time, and that's normal, everyone does...even myself, TBH. Yet, it's always best to assume that there's a exception to every rule, and that people come in an assortment. I feel that Mayu's realistic in terms of my sense of reality: she responds, she feels, she lives, and she struggles--but perhaps not in the way that we, as individuals, would do.


That last paragraph will be dealt in more details lower. Still what I can say here goes like this: You obviously think that she belongs to minority. I obviously did not state a THING. Why I say that?

1) I went along statistics - 95% is MORE LIKELY to happen than remaining 5% - so first of all I classified Mayu as - let's say - 'mainstream'
2) Since it did not fit AT ALL then remains 5% of minority - it's really MINORITY we might as well call them EXCEPTIONS
3) My point here is not that Mayu is unrealistic because her reaction pattern is not the one of the general part (I do not have problem with that)
4) My point is that her reaction pattern while BEING POSSIBLY THE ONE of the exception's group, is not backed up by story and events in EL

@ CyBeR: Like I already said: We do not have to assume that reaction like I described is THE ONLY ONE Mayu should have. That was CERTAINLY NOT my point. Wink
You made the point Yourself while saying: "She didn't seem a homeless person except for the moment the story demanded her to be..."

That' precisely the flaw of EL. It offten 'needs' sth and than it occures. And after - it disappears.

And also - I am not arguing whether such pattern of reaction is natural or not - it CERTAINLY is natural for some people. But the thing is - IN ELFEN LIED MAYU IS NOT PORTRAYED SO. She is clearly NOT portrayed like a person for whom such reaction is NATURAL. Her character is inconsistent, background story - while touching - serves no purpose, changes only one thing - YOUR ATTITUDE TOWARD HER. Because after all she is abused, and that makes You symphatize. I HATE such behavior. I had this kid in school whose parents were divorced what was then sth major. He always used it for others to symphatize, and Mayu's story makes me think creators wanted us to invoke affection towards Mayu, so they threw in some hard past for her. MANIPULATION. And do not start with: 'Elfen Lied is so short, how coud they find time to show us Mayu's story more clearly'. Elfen Lied finds it sweet time to show You multiple shots on panties. It takes it sweet time to show how YetAnotherGroupOfGuards is slaughtered with much details and instead it could take this 'precious' time and use it to make Mayu DECENT character. Not a half-baked one.

@ Kaj has given You VERY NICE example of how it can be done by comparing Misato and Mayu. For now - ONLY example I have on Mayu's homelessness are the aformentioned scrap of breads. ONLY. I can have a tons of examples on Kouta bein nice. I can have tons of examples on Lucy being murderer. I can have tons of examples of Nyuu being clueless. I can have tons of examples on Yuta being in love with outa and I can have tons of examples of Nana being in love with Kurama, seen as 'father-replacement'. And I can have ONE example and ONE flashback on Mayu's tragic story... THAT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

@ Dirty:

Quote:

I apologise to yourself and the rest of the forum community for my selfish unlawful act will thou forgiveth me?


The man was practically crawling and groveling. Still the Lord was not satisfied. The silently watching crowd stood seemingly unnaffected, while bursting with opinions: "He will take his head", "No, he will spare him, he's good willed", "Yet, he claimed life of others in such cases", "He merely gave him a warning so Dirty could make it before the mod would notice", "Yet the man is praising Elfen Lied", "Yeah, that would be like asking for death penalty", "Whoah? HE IS PRAISING EL?!! Suicidal! And after all, what there is to praise?", "Yeah completely nothing...". And so people watched, how judgement was being made, and justice was served.

The sentence was announced - Your life will be spared. For now.
Wink Wink ;P Very Happy

Maybe I will. Maybe I will not. It depends on how You will behave. Proper behaviour: "Yes, how could I be so blind! After all You are completely right!! Elfen Lied is crappy! I will now go and tell it to everyone..."

About unfortunate word - no problem, understood, cleared out.

Very Happy Well - enough on dreaming, let's get to discussing.

What You wrote on flashbacks in respond to my saying Mayu should not forget easily I shall readdress taking her age into account.

She was abused for a while. Long one at that. We know only about ONE try on her behalf to end it. She went to her mother. From the way it is shown it sems like the events were like that: father abuses her for a while, she has finally enough, she goes to mother, mother hits her and says it's her fault, she rans away from home. What I wrote than about was GENERAL tendency (as I clearly stated by using the verb 'tend to') in such things like rape. After all - from what we hear she WAS raped.
I do not know what You meant by 'using SHOCK tactics' so I won't address that. The fact that Kouta is kind is nothing for me, and I think for her MIGHT as well. After all, do You think that her stepfather was not nice to her in some 'compensative' way to make her silent? It is VERY LIKELY so. And in such case being nice for her is not a sign on 'uff, I can trust him cause he's nice'.
And You ask "when has she battle any fears'. A good point - she has no fears to battle after all, since the story is kinda hole-cover for main plot. Afte hole is covered story is not needed - hence brushed aside.

And about rape issue. I would not be afraid of Yuta, but raher Nyuu. Wink After all she is the one who discovers pleasure in fondling some breasts (not necessarily hers own). Wink ;P ;P


Like You pointed out - the series is providing the most barest of insight into Mayu's past. Rest is for us to speculate. That is why I say it's just a half-baked character. That is why I say her story is manipulative - after all, it is used for ONE purpose. To make You symphatize. Pfft. If they would explain some more - they would do so. But dialogues and explanations could give us some answers, and when we would find out how crappy they were... no more top sales for 14 episode. So we ended up with some minutes of pantie shots and libs tearing. After all - that always atracts some people.

While You have not 'said' that she shut down perfectly You have hinted it. Wink Nice try it was but still no use. Smile

Could You point out some examples of her being homeless? Other than scrapbreads and flashback and beach shelter. EARLIER than flashback?

Could You point out some behaviour of hers that was CLEARLY influenced by this episode of her life? After flashback?

Those are my questions which tended to be AVOIDED here... /smiles wickedly/ wait! You said - rhetorical ones... so You too think there is NO SUCH thing because it is not needed and forgotten... thank You Dirty /looks kindly at Dirty/ ;P Wink Very Happy

Heh - if that won't provoke some answers I'm clueless to what will.

Next You addressed several issues and here are two I will COMPLETELY tear aprt. Hope Yopu will talk to me after... You will, won't You? Sad Wink
Dirty wrote:

Umm where did it say she was homeless for a year got a reference point? One flashback cause this is Elfen Lied and not the Destitution of Mayu's past. Well ever noticed the characters in most series never change their clothes. To be fair you should at least see that even Nyuu/Lucy, Kouta, Yuka all change their clothes and only Mayu does not.
[CUT HERE A PART I WILL ADRESS IT LATER]
So what does the young boy who is raped by a man do? Is he scared of all men too and himself when he becomes one?


About boy - You are studying to be a teacher- so You probably KNOW that girls are DIFFERENT than boys, right? RIGHT? Oh hell... ok... If You do not - I will explain... ;P ;P Wink
OK. Jokes aside, let's take it on.

First - advice. You are writing probably in Notepad or sth. Just before copy-pasting the post, uncheck the Line Wrap option. Than You will not have double spaces between the lines - it makes Your post easier to read and understand.

Second: homeless mention. For sure the lady in the bakery tells sth on the issue, but I cannot tell if it was that quote. I think it was somewhere around though. Still - I do not know that is why 'somewhere' was used. Smile

Third: Silly me. How could I demand of them to make character decent if he is not the main one. Now I see. OK. No quarrel about that - no past of Mayu is demanded to justify her behaviour, after all she is not the main one. Let's focus on those, then, ok?

Fourth: Hell - if she does not change clothes in the anime than I can assume she is homeless? Is that ALL You ahve on the issue? Mayu is homeless cause she wears the same clothes? Why not make them dirty at least! It's just few stains, some scratch. It's not that hard. And gives MUCH to realism of the thing. Autocleaning and autorepairing still in use like I see. And the changing in clothing of other characters... is not so big.
Except Nyuu - that one has an upgrade quite noticeable. From naked to being dressed. What a jump. Wink

After it the true tearing apart begins, but fortunately for You I must end it quickly now, cause time is working for everyone, but only for a few for free. Sad I'm not yet one of those hence I will edit it later.

What is left:
    Rest of Your post, and every thing there I will counter

    Explanatory part of the mail - readressing few points - few are readressed above


See You for now. I will return to it today around midnight... perhaps. If I won't be too tired. Bye!

PS. Dirty - You have made my day with that last post... I at least saw some of Your reasons. I will now be able to adress them and counter them with mine. Let's see what will happen. Smile
PS2. Why suddenly Mr Tammo? :O

----------------------EDITED PART HERE-----------------------

dirty (#71854) wrote:
Well you are reading the context of my question wrong, i'm illustrating that there is a point no matter how hurt you are they you will resume trust, it's part of being human, Kouta doesn't come across as wanting to abuse Mayu, that's the impression we get and she has no reason not to trust him, remember trust here, is an individual bond shared between two people. On the contrary Mayu's perception of her
stepfather was completely opposite, directing her to do things, with a twisted face. You don't trust many people then is that a fair assumption of your character? Let's be honest here. [/color]

What You pointed here has several flaws. First:

1) No matter how hurt You are you will resume trust.
No. I will not resume the trust so fully. So quickly. I will resume SOME trust. Limited one. I will be more wary. It will die off with time - it always does. But the conditions will work. They always do. This is not human nauter, it is animal instinct. You got burned You are watchful of fire.
2) Kouta doesn't want to abuse Mayu. You know it. I know it. VIEWERS know it. How Mayu does it's beyond me. It's BEYOND THE SCREEN actually. You cannot tell with certainty she does. I cannot tell with certainty she does not. However, while NOT SHOWN she does it leaves me kinda stupefied as to WHY she trust him. Him being NICE won't do the trick here. Believe me it WON'T. She is not a puppy, she is 13/14 (I do not remember where her birthday was so I will just refer to her as 13 years old, /that way my 10 are not so off, it's barely 3 years not whole 4 ;P Wink/).
She should have some hesitation based on her past, and all hesitation we see she has is kinda along the lines: I do not want to stir You any trouble, becasue I am very polite. Yeah sure. Very common attitude among homeless people, politeness and not drawing attention, it works so miraculously when You want people to give You money...

3) "You don't trust many people then is that a fair assumption of your character?" Is WHAT a fair assumption? That I do not trust many people? That line is like not that story, it does not fits with the rest... unless there is some background to it I failed to see... Anyway - hope for some light here Wink.

On my quote
Quote:
About Bando lying on the beach and bleeding; life at stake etc. SURE MAN. That is always what kid will think at first.
Because young kids are so familiar with such topics, at ten they know exatlcy what death is, they have seen it hundreds of times and they are not scared anymore, after all what can scare a kid like that who never ever have seen blood coming out with such pressure (BANDO HAD ARTERIA'S OPENED - the blood was practically GUSHING OUT). And yes, such kid is perfect medic at the time, after all, when You are homeless You always carry on with You a CLEAN HANDKERCHIEF, white as a snow and probably desinfected as well - we can trust the creators on that one, I assume, since we can trust them on such detail as autorepair and autocleaning in clothes than the hell why not a CLEAN WHITE handkerchief! And while it has such handkerchiefs it also happens to know how to stop blood coming out and bandage a torn limb yes... that is precisely what 10 years old girl must know while leaving on the street.
After all it's a common rutine in Japan to find shredded man on a daily jogging route. For Mayu it was probably fourth time that week. Silly me, I wondered why she was so good at it.

You replied
{quote="Dirty"]Funny thing is I have actually been part of a some studies relating to this specific incidence, and it does question your ethics. Mayu is 13 turning 14, sure she definately starts to understand death. You mean arteries, perfect medic is you juicing up the fact that all she did was torniquet [www.dictionary.com if you don't know] his arm which is common sense,,,there was no bandaging my friend, rewatch the episode Wink


Hmmm.... I think I will clear this up. My points were:
1) She is a kid (13 years), she sees a dying man (never experienced death before).
2) She is 13 she sees hell lot of blood, she probably never ever seen half of it if not less in whole life altogether. Blood is coming out at great speed from MORE THAN ONE HOLE (he had not just ONE limb torn off actually).
3) She sees TWITCHING limbs TORNED OFF and lying apart.
4) She reacts like pro medic from Emergency team with at least year of work experience. Even knows what to do in such case. Every girl her age do, sure thing.
5) While being homeless for a time she actually HAPPENS TO have clean handkerchief (clean, not dirtied!).

You chose to address:
1) She probably understands death by now
I agree, what about seeing it? Watching from so close? Watching the pain, the suffering, the blood, the severed limbs who are seemingly alive still? Because after all even if Bando was NOT dying (and I think he pretty much WAS) he still was in VERY BAD shape. No reaction to that? She came PRETTY CLOSE.
2) All she did was torniquet his arm his arm which is common sense, there was no bandaging.
I followed Your suggestion on dictionary - thank You for link.
Torniquet - NO ENTRY FOUND. (That made me laugh quite a bit Wink - no offense but after sending me to dictionary on a word You should at least write it well... Wink ) Jokes aside, misspelling is ok, especially when writing a lot. On to business then,
Tourniquet - A device, typically a tightly encircling bandage, used to check bleeding by temporarily stopping the flow of blood through a large artery in a limb.

I think that now You Yourself see the point of HOMELESS 14 YEARS OLD LIVING ON THE STREET GIRL using such DEVICE... knowing what to do in artery case as well! And having equipment in her pocket.

On Your place I would have sticked on with bandaging, that was hard enough to explain, now You are in a tomb with THAT one... (not to mention it is kind of a bandage 'typically' as well ;P).

Please address my other points.

Dirty wrote:
A cheerful person would at least laugh and says alot of positive happy descriptive things, Can you please screen capture or reference a point where Mayu is laughing?


Definition on cheerful by the dictionary You linked to earlier.

Especially check those:
Being in good spirits; merry
Reflecting willingness or good humor
Very willing; pleased: glad to help.
Bright and cheerful: a glad May morning.

She IS merry quite often. Laughing? Check out the cemetery scene with Nana. One of the few redeeming episodes. Reflecting willingness - what did she do to Bando if not WILLINGLY helped him? And so on...

Dirty wrote:

Mayu never says "everything will be alright"

Oh come on. I did not said I quoted her, it was the MEANING I wanted to get through, she might have said don't worry, she might have said, just wait a bit, or I will be right back. It's ALL CHEERING. Like saying Do the best, hang on or sth. It is meant to give You HOPE to make You LAST LONGER. If that is NOT cheering than I got the whole cheer-leaders idea wrong.
Dirty wrote:

A more fitting description would be content rather than cheerful.

Content? Again the same dictionary, lower definition
1. Desiring no more than what one has; satisfied.
2. Ready to accept or acquiesce; willing: She was content to step down after four years as chief executive.
Are You saing she desired nothing more???? Was ready to accept anything (like returning home perhaps QuestionExclamation) ??

Dirty wrote:
Where does Mayu see vectors?

Yeah ma bad, I was taking a shortcut here. I meant - the only reason for her to go there is because she sees tombs flying in the air (so to speak). Then JUST as she arrives she sees two girls and IMMEDIATELY she starts crying to them 'don't fight'. How she got that it was those two doing the ruckus I dunno, unless she analyzed the movements of tombs in 0,5 s after enetering the cemetery and seeing girls and tombs. Or perhaps seeing the vectors - hence shortcut, of course she does not see vectors. Sorry for that.

Still I do not agree on the below.
Quote:
When you see unusual things occuring in life like most other humans it aroses your curiosity which often overtakes your instincts of survival. Look at the Indian Ocean Tsunami disaster, I have video clips of people standing watching the waves, before being torn apart by the Tsunami,,,

You are generalizing AWFULLY and by awfully I meant it is NOT so. Curiosity MAY overcome Your instinct but saying it is so IN GENERAL is not true. And please, withstand with the Tsunami, it is sth on MUCH MUCH MORE scale. Read Thalan report on seeing the Tsunami, it's not plain curiosity there. It's shock, awe, fear which paralyzes You, hopelessness... I could go on. In Mayu's case it was like: tombs are in the air flying! Go there! She ran of course at once, and IMMEDIATELY started screaming stop this don't fight and so on (just to stop You from going to check if those were her words EXACTLY I will say again it was NOT a quote ;P Wink).

Dirty wrote:
"Even when I'm happy, only tears come out" [quoted by a cheerful person according to Mr. Tammo].

My favorite national writer, Henryk Sienkiewicz wrote once a story about two characters being kidnapped, than (lot of adventures) than lost in the desert (famous n our country). Stan and Nel went through a LOT of hardships, seen many terrible things, and very often Nel cried. When Stan tried to do comfort her somehow, she always said it was not needed. 'But You are crying' he replied. 'It's just that my eyes are sweating' she reassured him always. That is a very brave way of cheering. She does say to him do not worry. She does say it to herself as well. I think that quote above is similar - Mayu is saying to herslef I am happy. She is ridiculing her tears. Trying to laugh it off. She tries to cheer herself up by lying. The same a s Nel. And one more thing - thare is only ONE such scene.

Next part is kinda tricky, about darkness and lightness and perspective, If You mean here... leave guesses aside - WHAT You mean here?
T
he quote RIGHT AFTER it:
Dirty wrote:
Mixed bad or not that's your call however it is necessary that happiness aspects be included to justify the depth of the sadness.

Happiness is to JUSTIFY the amount of sadness?? eee... watch Ima Soko ni Iru Boku. Truly. Do that. And than try saying that sentence again.

OFFTOPIC: On motivators in life
Quote:
Yes there are more I never said there were only two, read carefully.

Earlier post: there are two great motivators in life hope and fear
That sentence does not leave place for other great motivators, does it? At least that is what I understood. END OFFTOPIC

Dirty wrote:
It may well yes be a directing flaw or also the fact the series is limited to 13 episodes and thus an OVA for Mayu would be necessary, as a consequence we are left dabbling with the possibilities however my possibilities are noted from evidence demonstrated in the show. undoubtedly moping would have occurred and may still be occuring we are not shown this.


Your suggestions are also not shown, JUST LIKE my sick ones. Those are ONLYU possibiliteis, and You know MOPING would occured.
Why not use Ockham razor and go with the simplest explanation instead of trying to combine sth very complicated? If You need a hammer You are not going to make a robot to do the job of a hammer, but You are just taking the hammer and doing the job with it. If moping would have occured and we are not shown this why go for a hypothesis which is not shown either and say it's right one?

Your evidence so far is that she ran from home and that she has a friend in Wanta... It somehow does not convince me that she got over what happened. Wink ;P

While Your comparison on Lucy+dog and Mayu+dog is interesting, I will now not delve into it properly, still - I will do it in future. Smile

OK. Enough for now. What is left is the last part of the post, explanatoory one.

And because Kaj summed it up quite a bit, there is little left for me. I said already I agree on her age, so child/adult thing (like You stated) goes on from now. Still - while having those 3/4 years more she is still not likely to get on with it. It's rather what Kaj's said: creators were lazy bunch and decided to skip the thing, refusing us to see any way she was affected by it. She just was abused, You like her, so it''s ok and we may forget the thing. Read earlier posts - there is a lot on it.

I know there was one little thing I told Lady Rose I will address and I will. But next time, I returned not arounfd midnight but aorund 2 AM and now it's 4 AM. So... Good night minna-san. I will take a look here in the morning... perhaps. Perhaps I won't - many things are waiting for me to do... Smile Anyway, see You around.

@ Charn - what You said and what I read by going earlier around and visiting profiles made me realize that the reviews system is VERY not perfect. But HOW will You implement going on with that? Enjoyment is mixed on story, character, sound and animation, still it is hard to rate like that. Got any idea? I think I prefer to ignore overall so to give anything such mark it deserves. And if the overall very much does not fits with total impression I got ... such case for me must yet happen. Anyway - I am preparing for another marathon. Week ago or so I wrote all Love Hina's one night, now I think it is time for Tenchis... Very Happy So if You are to say sth that will affect my reviews system do it. So I will not have to change it later Wink Very Happy
BTW - You changed Your EL review again? How? /me goes check/
It does not seems changed since first time I read it. You actually found a way to risen the score from 8.3 to 8.5 CLEVER Wink Razz
I read in Your profile You have a lot on Your head right now - hope all is well with Your work.

So finally - good night to You all. Smile And see You around.
_________________
Tammo (aka Thomas)
STH = SomeTHing POV = Point Of View
-------GO---------------------READ -----------------------THOSE--------------------NOW------------
Useful Info ** Moderating related stuff ** My anime opinions ** Adorable quotes

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:45 pm
Last edited by Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694) on Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:04 am; edited 1 time in total
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Kaj (#32327)
AnimeNfo Warrior

Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 599
Location: UK
rosepetals19 (#42525) wrote:
haha, LOL Laughing Kaj, I think that when it comes to debates, there are always opinions, this thread could go on and on forever with different ideals and assertions about EL, but at least we're learning more about the series as we go along. But my goal now is the same as it was when I first came into the thread and in other debates I've participated in (which number very few)---I only want to allow you to see my perspective and my interpretations, not change your opinion Wink


Yea there are always opinions, but I see the same opinions being reiterated in different ways over and over again, that's why I said what I said. Never mind... onwards with expressing the same opinion in YET ANOTHER way.

Oh yea Tammo, I didn't really understand what you meant by manipulation, but now I see what you mean. Yes, I had same impression that Mayu background was just a short cut to get people to symphathize with her.

Dirty: I see you mention that child abuse is not a topic to be taken lightly. But that's exactly what this anime has done - it undermined the effects of it. The way she recovers so well leads to you lot assuming that she MUST be bottling it in (whereas I'm thinking they didn't take it into account). You pick on her being a minority case, but without much supporting evidence of her being an minority case (this helped me to assume that they didn't take it into account). But if they'd wanted to REALLY wanted to condemn the kind of things that happened to Mayu, instead of just using it as a quick ticket to gain your sympathy, there COULD have more done to show the after effects on her life, or maybe how she battled to get over it. instead of piling on the fanservice.

Since Tammo seems eager to post some more. I'll wait for him to complet his post and go I'll go watch Rose of Versaille. This debate is, once again, distracting me from watching anime Sad (see Tammo, this is a good way of motivating yourself to write shorter posts - cos you have something else you really want to do Very Happy)

PS dirty, that I was a dirty trick to use double lines to make your post seem longer Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy Only joking ofc mate.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:08 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger    Back to top 
charn (#40191)
AnimeNfo Juggernaut


Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 3420
Kaj (#32327) wrote:

Yea there are always opinions, but I see the same opinions being reiterated in different ways over and over again, that's why I said what I said.


Yeah, you are right. What Thomas said to the people he debates in this round is the exactly same thing he told me and rosepetals when we had our discussion last month.

Problem is, those discussions are so long that I guess most people wouldn't read them and just initiate the debate from point 1 again.. and Thomas would just have to explain everything from point 1 AGAIN..

and again.. and again... and again... and again...

Poor Thomas, young and restless.. Dunno how much time he has spent for trying to make ppl realize EL's weaknesses..

BTW, from this discussion, I have come back to my reviews and changed the score.. I no longer rate animation / sound / characters / story.. I just rate value and enjoyment in every series.. Because I found that the score in enjoyment is what it matters most.. and thus, it should be the score I should give to each series..
_________________
Charn's Top Favorite Anime List

PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:54 pm
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Kaj (#32327)
AnimeNfo Warrior

Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 599
Location: UK
 Hehe that's what I've been doing from the very start Razz Only difference I sort of tweak around all the marks till I get the average that I want Very Happy

I just realised I forgot to mention something I was going to say in my last post. I still think Lucy was a murdering monster before being betrayed by Kouta. Wasn't she killing a family every night? I dunno about you, but that seems like a pretty monstrous act to me. She clearly already lost it. Kouta' betrayal simply made it WORSE, causing her to go a rampage.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:49 am
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger    Back to top 
Silent Blue (#71774)
AnimeNfo Peasant


Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 14
 PISSED !!!!
This post was edited because of too much flame, that is the reason it might look chopped.

Quote:
Fine, after reading a few of your posts Thomas I realised there is no point in trying to explain my point of view, that i seem to share with a few others, to you because you reject it to fanatically. And of course there is another personal reason: I really like "Elfen Lied" and really dislike the way you are interpreting the movie.

Personal issues now:

Thomas(akaTammo)(#57694) wrote:

You write to me in PM if I remember the second part of respect Yourself saying. I do.


1.What I wrote to you in PM should stay in PM unless you ask me first. Or should that be some sort of lesson?! Because later you wrote:
Thomas(akaTammo)(#57694) wrote:

You will know when You lost my respect - I will stop talking to You, except being very polite during special occasions.
Well - I hope for some new debaters . Joshua, I still am waiting for Your answer, Silent Blues, Yours as well. Last - if You wanna stay...


2.Does "I still am waiting for Your answer" means "You allready lost a lot of respect in my eyes Silent Blue but I'm such a forgiving man that I'll grant you one more try"?!

3.What is this manner of treating people like toys, even if you so cleverly make it look like somme sort of joking?! Do you really have such a good impresion of yourself or do you think everybody around you are pupets?! No matter what the answer is I really don't apreciate it!

Oh you have no ideea what I'm writing about? Here is just a piece (I really don't whana search for the rest):

Thomas(akaTammo)(#57694) wrote:

MWAHAHAHAHA
I got them all!! I pretended to be nice and now they are INSIDE my trap!
MWAHAHAHAHA
So. MAYU. You guys have picked VERY unfortunate topic to argue about.
/me smiles devilishly/
.........................................................................
Whoah! Silent Blue... courageous! Still - no use. Sorry.


4.To put my words upside down it just drives me crazy !!!

Thomas(akaTammo)(#57694) wrote:

......................................................................
She doesn't have expectations... that is truly silly sentence here....
......................................................................


Just the fact that YOU don't understand something doesn't make it stupid or how did you wrote... "silly", same goes for the main subject on this forum, the "Elfen Lied" movie.

Oh! and to make my point clear, when somebody gets to the point of having no expectations (as in nothing good of course, we all hope for good things) it tents to get prety much dark and lonly. A hard context to bear for anybody but even harder for a little girl... The rest now makes sense I hope!

Silent Blue wrote:

That is why she really needs a companion, and more than that, that is why her only companion is not human (and the puppy comes at the last moment, just before she was letting go), but that changed after she was able to put away the fear of ataching to other people, somehow everithing good hapens around Kouta...


5.Here is another one of your interpretations:

Thomas(akaTammo)(#57694) wrote:


Silent Blue wrote:


Kaj (#32327) wrote:

The memory of the owner of the dog calling her dirty made me want to giggle, because from what I remember, she didn't seem dirty at all, she seemed squeeky clean, that's why I didn't realise she was homeless.


The ideea in that piece was (as I see it) to shock you one more time with how mean people can be. You get to see how the owner is worried about her little dog being lost and expect that girl to be kind becouse of her love for the puppy . Well you get the oposite face of te coin, and without any reason, that is why Mayu's clothes are not really dirty, becouse they don't need to be... (To be more explicit, it's only an insult, it does not have to have solid grounds, it still serves it purpuose!).


Hell yeah - I think that was not quite that idea. However - if it was - it shown their manipulative side. Because with the girl remark I remembered that Mayu is supposed to be HOMELESS and therefore DIRTY and stuff. And I just realized, that she looks like usual - pretty and pretty clean too. So usually she looked like she JUST LEFT home, while being homeless for around a year or so. Great consistency, just congratulate the makers. If the girl wanted to be mean to her better idea would be saying You tried to steal him from me or sth like that. If the creators wanted her to be mean - it should be done other way. That way was pointing at her state - homelesness and dirty clothes, but they *clearly* forgot to picture it as well. So it was like saying to a hero, who looks perfectly healthy and has NO BLOOD on him - OMG You are so terribly wounded! Your face is covered with blood! OMG OMG Call an ambulance - all in a terribly worried, imbued with tears voice of (of course who else) some female. Effect is the same: I laugh. Instead of caring I laugh - or worse - I frown.


"Hell yeah" ??!!!!! OK!! that you don't agree with me I can accept, BUT taht you respond like this I cannot !!!! Is this respectfully to you?!

"I think that was not quite that idea." ???!!!!!
Man!! you really have a way with words don't you?! If we disagree on something and you are going to say "no! you are wrong!" I'm going to consider that a lack of respect and education. Try instead to say "I don't agree with you, my opinion is..."

To explain the last quote. Did nobody cursed you when you where little just to payback for someting you did or he tghout you did to him???
Or some bully boy never beated you just to show how tough he is?

Silly examples I know but I see myself forced to give you someting easy so you don't missunderstand me again!

And the point is, and I'm writing this again, "it's only an INSULT, it does not have to have solid grounds, it still SERVES ITS PURPOSE!"!!!

I really wander if you like anything !!! And if so how boring it could be... Becouse in your movie everyting is just like in mathematics, UNBREACKABLE RULES, people are simple and ordered in X categories, emotions are representet verry explicit and nobody tryes to conceal emotions and so on...

I think this is my last post for you Thomas, you really anoyed me with your stuborn and blind but "smart guy" way of beeing, it's allmost as if you have someting to prove.

If this message seems to hard for you, you had it comming.

I still respect you and your opinion, but only if you respect mine.


PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:16 am
Last edited by Silent Blue (#71774) on Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:04 pm; edited 4 times in total
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger    Back to top 
charn (#40191)
AnimeNfo Juggernaut


Joined: 03 Apr 2004
Posts: 3420
 Well, all I can say is that I wish no one would take this discussion so personally.. Wink

Personally, I have said this.. but I will say it again. (And Thomas already knows this.. and he respects my opinion).. that from Thomas's detailed analysis.. I have understood.. that Elfen Lied created illusion to its viewers that the show has got strong character developments and story developments.. by rushed manipulation of events... and.. considerable use of nudity and violence..

Despite that, I myself am still willing to be hypnotized with this illusion.. and I enjoy this anime immensely.. even now that i realized how much flaws it has.

Thus, while I won't say that Elfen Lied is the best anime of 2004 or the best anime I have seen... I will have to say that I enjoy Elfen lied immensely. Enjoy the show and being the best show.. is a completely different matter. Schindler's List is an exceptional movie.. and I have no objection for it to be the academy award winner.. but it's definitely not the movie which I will say to anyone that I enjoy it.. Because I do not enjoy it. Yes, i respect this movie as something good.. but to me, it is not something enjoyable...

On the other hand, Titanic,.. while it is a show full of rushed manipulation, occasional nudity, and violence.. could make me feel so intoxicated.. as if I was someone inside the movie.. and see what is happening in the show with my own eyes..

Elfen Lied made me feel the same way.

Regards
Charn
_________________
Charn's Top Favorite Anime List

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:11 am
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Silent Blue (#71774)
AnimeNfo Peasant


Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 14
 @charn
It is my opinion that Thomas respects your opinion only because you embraced his interpretation.
You say that you realized the flaws in the movie after reading Thomas's detailed analysis, and there is no problem with that, even more than that nobody ever said Elfen Lied was flawless.
But I really think Thomas is greatly exagereting the flaws. Both in number and size. And most of the problem comes from the way he sees things, you have to be able to see this movie from a romantic point of view, not a critical one if you whant to understand the messages.

sincerely yours,
Silent Blue

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 4:53 am
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger    Back to top 
Caddberry (#27690)
AnimeNfo Forum Administrator


Joined: 27 Nov 2003
Posts: 12359
Location: Home.
 I actually read the last few posts (parts) because it seems this is getting heated.. Again though.. I probably wont be able to respond for a bit..

Thomas you missed Blue's point .. Dirty was an insult .. not meaning the girl was dirty herself.. Even though she is supposed to be percieved as homeless..

Quote:
Fourth: Hell - if she does not change clothes in the anime than I can assume she is homeless? Is that ALL You ahve on the issue? Mayu is homeless cause she wears the same clothes? Why not make them dirty at least! It's just few stains, some scratch. It's not that hard. And gives MUCH to realism of the thing. Autocleaning and autorepairing still in use like I see. And the changing in clothing of other characters... is not so big.


You dont know if someone cleans her up.. Maybe some nice woman cleaned her up.. The point is is that you just dont know.. Along with a lot of things in anime.. A lot of these arguments are based on what should be or what shouldnt be, what is done and what you dont see, but really it is just unknown.. When I watch an anime like this .. I justify things such as this in my own mind saying.. It could have happened..

Kaj (#32327) wrote:
Dirty: I see you mention that child abuse is not a topic to be taken lightly. But that's exactly what this anime has done - it undermined the effects of it. The way she recovers so well leads to you lot assuming that she MUST be bottling it in (whereas I'm thinking they didn't take it into account). You pick on her being a minority case, but without much supporting evidence of her being an minority case (this helped me to assume that they didn't take it into account).


Again maybe she did recover quickly.. I'm sure she still had issues anyone would, but she opened up to her new home.. You can't try to judge realism because everyone reacts to different situations in different ways.. There was a debate about realism in Kimi ga awhile back and its the same issue here.. You don't know how someone would react to different things.. Saying that it is impossible for her to react the way she did is like being narrowminded because it could have happened and we dont see what happens behind the scenes, or between the gaps..

Quote:
But if they'd wanted to REALLY wanted to condemn the kind of things that happened to Mayu, instead of just using it as a quick ticket to gain your sympathy, there COULD have more done to show the after effects on her life, or maybe how she battled to get over it. instead of piling on the fanservice.


Mayu's past was what happened.. The creators wanted you to know what happened to her.. Whether or not you feel sympathy for her is up to you. Yeah they could have done more to convey her feelings and more of what happened to her, but the anime wasn't about that.

You are also calling the panty shots and violence (fan-service) time wasted basically.. When it's not. The violence made the anime what it is.. Like the violence in Berserk.. The panty shots were added for comic relief, and I enjoy fan-service.. Fan-service in this was not overdone at all.. Atleast in my opinion. There are other anime out there that do overuse FS, but they are also FS based anime.

Yeah, they could have taken out some of the FS, they could have included more back story on Mayu, and they could have done a lot of things, but in 12 or 13 episodes you just cant pack it all in, and the back story on Mayu was not a focal point for the anime.. It was a focus to show you what happened to her, but it is not the main story.

Realism in anything can be argued.. ANYTHING.. Any anime can be argued to be unrealistic. I tell myself that it could have happened because it could have.. Miracles, and scientific phenomena do happen in this world.. Things we dont understand happen.. Things do not have to be spelled out in black and white to be realistic, and I personally do not have to be force fed something with all the details drawn out and perfectly explained to believe in its realistic qualities.

And again people.. Lets not make this personal.

& Blue Welcome to the Forum!
_________________

Obey the forum Rules!
Find answers to your questions in the Forum FAQ

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:08 am
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail    Back to top 
Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)
AnimeNfo Review Moderator

Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 1763
Location: At work. Always at work. Always at Your service.
 Re: PISSED !!!!
I am adressing this although in my edited post up there I said I am going to bed. Still - when I saw how pissed someone here is I thought I will try to clear this up.

So. Onto the matter.

@ Silent Blue.

De gustibus non disputandum est - one should not discuss tastes.
If it is about tastes - than I don't have anything left to tell. Your opinion will be Yours and mine will stay mine.

About fanatically rejecting? There is so many flaws in Elfen Lied that it is hard for me to swallow it up at once as brilliant, stunning, amazing and so on. I started this debate with mail to Charn - and it seems that while he recognized the style of this mail as my style of doing such things You did not - instead You took it to Yourself. I never intended that.
I do not know why You start to say I'm fanatic - it is true that I rated from all anime I have seen EL the lowest, but I still say I have a reason. Read my other reviews to see that it is my style of writing. You did not seem offended by it at first, I assume You took some time to read at least some part of this discussion BEFORE Your arrival? There it is seen also.


Silent Blue wrote:

Personal issues now:

Thomas(akaTammo)(#57694) wrote:

You write to me in PM if I remember the second part of respect Yourself saying. I do.


1.What I wrote to you in PM should stay in PM unless you ask me first.

That quote, and also one other from the very same post is taken from a PM You wrote to me. Yes, You are very right here - what is in a PRIVATE MESSAGE should stay private. However those quotes were closely connected to the topic, were one-sentenced or even less - like mention You wrote about - they also were for me an occasion to NOT write the same thing twice, and I certainly did not thought they are somewhat things You would want to keep secret at all cost. In Your later post You did not touched the subject, also. Still You are right with Private Message here. Tell me - were You offended by it? Is so I will apologize and never quote a thing of Your Pm without Your agreement on it.

Silent Blue wrote:

Or should that be some sort of lesson?! Because later you wrote:

Thomas(akaTammo)(#57694) wrote:

You will know when You lost my respect - I will stop talking to You, except being very polite during special occasions.
Well - I hope for some new debaters . Joshua, I still am waiting for Your answer, Silent Blues, Yours as well. Last - if You wanna stay...


2.Does "I still am waiting for Your answer" means "You allready lost a lot of respect in my eyes Silent Blue but I'm such a forgiving man that I'll grant you one more try"?!


I suggest You to read again the PM You sent me. Then - rereading the fragment of the post.

And Yes. I later wrote what You quoted. And THERE WAS AN EMPTY LINE INBETWEEN the first and the second. Because it was on two different topics.

Third point got me completely lost. I am not toying with You, that is for sure, I tried to not yell at people here but rather emphasize, instead of being nasty I'm going for jokes. And... I do not know if You even will read it if the quote "No matter what the answer is I really don't apreciate it!" stands true. Cause that simply means that after all You DO NOT like discussing things when sarcasm is at stake, or someone will stand his opinion not in a very carefully phrased words, just making jokes to ease up some tension. Silent Blue - the example You gave is not clearing this up AT ALL. As to why:

Silent Blue wrote:

Oh you have no ideea what I'm writing about? Here is just a piece (I really don't whana search for the rest):

Thomas(akaTammo)(#57694) wrote:

MWAHAHAHAHA
I got them all!! I pretended to be nice and now they are INSIDE my trap!
MWAHAHAHAHA
So. MAYU. You guys have picked VERY unfortunate topic to argue about.
/me smiles devilishly/
.........................................................................
Whoah! Silent Blue... courageous! Still - no use. Sorry.


You see - I WENT AND CHECKED. While You just said I toy with You and DID NOT BOTHER CHECKING. I think that speaks about who respects whom.

There are several things You LEFT OUT of that quote:
In the said post, I wrote:

MWAHAHAHAHA
I got them all!! I pretended to be nice and now they are INSIDE my trap!
MWAHAHAHAHA

Smile Wink

So. MAYU. You guys have picked VERY unfortunate topic to argue about.
/me smiles devilishly/
You see, with Mayu there is just this one little problem.


First goes joke THAN EMPTY LINE that two emoticons emphasizing what was a joke and THAN EMPTY LINE again and little teasing and than the debates goes.

How is such joke TOYING with anyone... sincerely I don't know.

Silent Blue wrote:

4.To put my words upside down it just drives me crazy !!!

Thomas(akaTammo)(#57694) wrote:

......................................................................
She doesn't have expectations... that is truly silly sentence here....
......................................................................


Just the fact that YOU don't understand something doesn't make it stupid or how did you wrote... "silly", same goes for the main subject on this forum, the "Elfen Lied" movie.


You know - I admire quoting. I truly do. It makes things EASIER to read. In long debates it helps a lot. But if You quote - do it FULLY. Because if You RIPP IT OFF CONTEXT it KINDA LOSES SENSE INTENDED.

The above sentence truly seems like I'm laughing at You and calling You idiot(although silly has definitely A LOT LIGHTER meaning than idiot).
And again - I WENT AND CHECKED. And ther is just this few words AFTER.
really I wrote:
She doesn't have expectations... that is truly silly sentence here, I think You meant sth else by it.


If after a comma is I THINK YOU MEANT STH ELSE BY IT... than suddenly instead of trying to laugh at You and ridicule You it seems I realized You wrote sth You did not intended and am POINTING IT OUT for You so You COULD CORRECT THE THING.

You accused me a lot here Silent Blue. Right now passes an hour since I started to replying to You in hopes of clearing the thing out. And here it stops. Because from 5 points of Your full of exclamations post, I already addressed four. And it was three misquotes on Your behalf - and in original posts all the things I quoted are standing and are QUITE NOTICEABLE. The one not misquotation is the PM issue. While I HAD MY REASONS for doing what I did, I still recognize my mistake. And I adressed it I hope in a satisfactory manner. I will not touch the fifth point. I read it and personally I think that You are taking it AWFULLY personally.
Perhaps now You will adress this post, perhaps You won't, because 'I had it coming'. I did not had coming that You will yell at me and misquote me and on misquotation launch .... whatever it was.

About respect. Even when i play jokes, I play them often at myself as well. I never insulted a person here (if some of their sentence were being called 'silly' it is not an insult for me - it HAPPENS that ppl say silly things, even while being clever, smart, amazing and whatever more comes to mind). I said to Lady of Nineteen Rose Petals that I please her not to bullshit me. Somehow she got that I think ONE OF HER SENTENCES or paragraphs (Wink) is bullshit and she just CORRECTED IT BY SAYING SHE DID NOT and argumenting why. And I sat here to write this post JUST to clear this up. Rest is TOTALLY up to You Silent Blue. TOTALLY UP TO YOU.


One more thing. If You truly think that I respect Charn for bending towards my opinion and praising my logical thinking than ... You are rating him LOWER than I thought. He DID NOT BEND. Read his posts. He is not posting now - EL is crap. He did not change his review for a word for God's sake (ok, perhaps I missed a word somewhere there but still Charn, it is not changed much, is it now? Wink Wink). It is still praising the thing very much (8.5 rating, that is not low I think, even for Your love for it).

Good night everyone, Thanks Charn for speaking for me. Smile Again my thanks in the matter. Heh... perhaps I shall lower post frequencies?
_________________
Tammo (aka Thomas)
STH = SomeTHing POV = Point Of View
-------GO---------------------READ -----------------------THOSE--------------------NOW------------
Useful Info ** Moderating related stuff ** My anime opinions ** Adorable quotes

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:11 am
Last edited by Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694) on Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Tritonus (#1494)
AnimeNfo Peasant


Joined: 27 Apr 2002
Posts: 12
 Who are the little dicloniuses?
**************Spoiler**************

Who's the little diclonius killing off all the cops in the apartment actually? Is it Lucy or Nana? Or is it another one who the cops shoot to death? Because she looks very dead.

And the diclonius they are testing how long range she has by shooting balls at her? She looks like Nana. But then she dies after infecting Kurama?

Hope someone could answer this

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:27 am
  View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger    Back to top 
Kaj (#32327)
AnimeNfo Warrior

Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 599
Location: UK
 @caddberry chocolate eggs: Ahhh. NOW I see what silent blue was trying to say. Thanks for the explanation. So basically, his argument was that the lady insulted Mayu just for the sake of it. She called her "dirty" even though she wasn't. However, taking into account the situation, I think it's unlikely that the insult was without basis. I do not think she chose to use "dirty" to insult Mayu just for the hell of it. I think Mayu's appearance was meant to be dirty, and that the woman was disgusted that this beggar girl was holding her dog. As for the realism argument. You got my meaning wrong. Did I not say that it WAS possible that all the assumptions were true? I simply said it seemed an unlikely scenario. So many of the explanations on EL came from empty assumptions based on rare possibilities that I find it really difficult to swallow all these explanations just like that.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:49 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger    Back to top 
dirty (#71854)
AnimeNfo Peasant


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 20
 Re: MoRe's
Antihero: Tammo wrote:
@ Dirty:

Hero: dirty wrote:

I apologise to yourself and the rest of the forum community for my selfish unlawful act will thou forgiveth me?


The man was practically crawling and groveling. Still the Lord was not satisfied. The silently watching crowd stood seemingly unnaffected, while bursting with opinions: "He will take his head", "No, he will spare him, he's good willed", "Yet, he claimed life of others in such cases", "He merely gave him a warning so Dirty could make it before the mod would notice", "Yet the man is praising Elfen Lied", "Yeah, that would be like asking for death penalty", "Whoah? HE IS PRAISING EL?!! Suicidal! And after all, what there is to praise?", "Yeah completely nothing...". And so people watched, how judgement was being made, and justice was served.

The sentence was announced - Your life will be spared. For now.
Wink Wink ;P Very Happy

Maybe I will. Maybe I will not. It depends on how You will behave. Proper behaviour: "Yes, how could I be so blind! After all You are completely right!! Elfen Lied is crappy! I will now go and tell it to everyone..."

About unfortunate word - no problem, understood, cleared out.

Very Happy Well - enough on dreaming, let's get to discussing.


Bravo! Bravo! What is a wordsmith like yourself wasting your talent on an Elfen Lied forum,,,you should be writing the Elfen Lied [Tammo's Perfect Edition] script. Wink

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
The fact that Kouta is kind is nothing for me, and I think for her MIGHT as well. After all, do You think that her stepfather was not nice to her in some 'compensative' way to make her silent? It is VERY LIKELY so. And in such case being nice for her is not a sign on 'uff, I can trust him cause he's nice'.


So Mayu has a few options, are you prejudice towards all white people if a white person has wronged you? Are you prejudice towards all girls because one broke your heart? I'd hope that wasn't the case and that is why I cite here that though Mayu experienced tragedy with her step-father [a male figure] need not transfer to her prejudice against all males, where an individual is judged on their own merits and more specifically where Kouta has not come across as intimidating, forceful, cruel and rather the opposite. As per usual Kouta demonstrates these traits in an unmanipulative way that you claim her step-father could be.

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
Like You pointed out - the series is providing the most barest of insight into Mayu's past. Rest is for us to speculate. That is why I say it's just a half-baked character. That is why I say her story is manipulative - after all, it is used for ONE purpose. To make You symphatize. Pfft. If they would explain some more - they would do so. But dialogues and explanations could give us some answers, and when we would find out how crappy they were... no more top sales for 14 episode. So we ended up with some minutes of pantie shots and libs tearing. After all - that always atracts some people.


Half-baked is a rather harsh synopsis? We can speculate or not that's our choice, and she's perhaps half-baked because her role is not the focus of the series? Purpose to sympathise is yet again your own choice? If you were a step-father who sexually abused your own daughter watching the show you might actually enjoy the sadismn...where is the sympathy there? Again you have tunnel vision. Well panty shots are necessary to depict the 'simulated sexual abuse' and the limbs tearing well it's gratuitous violence and it's there to attract people. I'm sure a pair of boobs are going to be more attractive to you than a hairy penis right? Wink

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
While You have not 'said' that she shut down perfectly You have hinted it. Wink Nice try it was but still no use. Smile


There is a huge gap between shutting down perfectly and dealing with issues, the only time we are shown this is of course the flashback sequence in episode 5 and it clearly shows Mayu is reflecting on her current situation whilst in quasi emotional state, it's your interpretation that she is shutting down perfectly and not mine,,,comprende?

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
Could You point out some examples of her being homeless? Other than scrapbreads and flashback and beach shelter. EARLIER than flashback?


This question seriously makes me question your brain but then again the more you type the more you expose your weak points Wink

Episode 4, 06:52. Focus on Mayu's bag of breadscraps, Mayu hides the bag, runs away << Why is she embarrased, I wonder? Cause she's homeless
Episode 4, 07:41. Mayu clearly seen munching on scraps of bread << After saying they were for Wanta, she lied, why? Cause she's homeless
Episode 4, 13:03. The shopkeeper says to Yuka "although she comes everyday, she's always wearing the same clothes, the other shopkeepers say she's homeless." << Enough said.
Episode 4, 15:14. Kouta picks up Mayu from hospital and questions why she left his number rather than her families, why? Cause she's homeless
Episode 4, 16:49. [Mayu Quote]"It's delicious", Mayu blushes while saying this << Looks like she hasn't had real food in awhile, since everybody has astonished faces, why? Cause she's homeless
Episode 4, 17:31. [Mayu Quote]"Having a bath, I wonder how long it's been,,," << Homeless perhaps??? Cause she's homeless
Episode 4, 17:51. Yuka + Kouta discuss the possibility that Mayu may be homeless << Seems like they have more of a clue than you do? Wink

Are you going to credit me with correcting your mistakes,,,again? Smile

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
Could You point out some behaviour of hers that was CLEARLY influenced by this episode of her life? After flashback?


Unsure what you are asking here, please elaborate this ambiguous question and I will address the issue. Smile

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
Next You addressed several issues and here are two I will COMPLETELY tear aprt. Hope Yopu will talk to me after... You will, won't You? Sad Wink

Hero: dirty wrote:

Umm where did it say she was homeless for a year got a reference point? One flashback cause this is Elfen Lied and not the Destitution of Mayu's past. Well ever noticed the characters in most series never change their clothes. To be fair you should at least see that even Nyuu/Lucy, Kouta, Yuka all change their clothes and only Mayu does not.
[CUT HERE A PART I WILL ADRESS IT LATER]
So what does the young boy who is raped by a man do? Is he scared of all men too and himself when he becomes one?


About boy - You are studying to be a teacher- so You probably KNOW that girls are DIFFERENT than boys, right? RIGHT? Oh hell... ok... If You do not - I will explain... ;P ;P Wink
OK. Jokes aside, let's take it on.

First - advice. You are writing probably in Notepad or sth. Just before copy-pasting the post, uncheck the Line Wrap option. Than You will not have double spaces between the lines - it makes Your post easier to read and understand.


I see no answer to the suggestion I am posing did you forget to answer it? Boys who are rape victims by Older Men still react similarly in fear that young girls do, nice joke, where's the answer?

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
Second: homeless mention. For sure the lady in the bakery tells sth on the issue, but I cannot tell if it was that quote. I think it was somewhere around though. Still - I do not know that is why 'somewhere' was used. Smile


I have addressed this issue above now see the proof that they suggest in the series that Mayu does not change her clothes and is probably homeless, moving on.

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
Third: Silly me. How could I demand of them to make character decent if he is not the main one. Now I see. OK. No quarrel about that - no past of Mayu is demanded to justify her behaviour, after all she is not the main one. Let's focus on those, then, ok?


Quarelling? We are having an amicable discussion here Smile

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
Fourth: Hell - if she does not change clothes in the anime than I can assume she is homeless? Is that ALL You ahve on the issue? Mayu is homeless cause she wears the same clothes? Why not make them dirty at least! It's just few stains, some scratch. It's not that hard. And gives MUCH to realism of the thing. Autocleaning and autorepairing still in use like I see. And the changing in clothing of other characters... is not so big.
Except Nyuu - that one has an upgrade quite noticeable. From naked to being dressed. What a jump. Wink


You can apologise now or do I need to show you a screen capture I have got a direct quote from the show to support my suggestion Smile

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
After it the true tearing apart begins, but fortunately for You I must end it quickly now, cause time is working for everyone, but only for a few for free. Sad I'm not yet one of those hence I will edit it later.


Nice perspective on your work, unfortunately you are tearing yourself quite readily with your wild exagerations and misunderstandings of vital factual occurrences.

----------------------EDITED PART HERE-----------------------

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
dirty (#71854) wrote:
Well you are reading the context of my question wrong, i'm illustrating that there is a point no matter how hurt you are they you will resume trust, it's part of being human, Kouta doesn't come across as wanting to abuse Mayu, that's the impression we get and she has no reason not to trust him, remember trust here, is an individual bond shared between two people. On the contrary Mayu's perception of her
stepfather was completely opposite, directing her to do things, with a twisted face. You don't trust many people then is that a fair assumption of your character? Let's be honest here. [/color]

What You pointed here has several flaws. First:

1) No matter how hurt You are you will resume trust.
No. I will not resume the trust so fully. So quickly. I will resume SOME trust. Limited one. I will be more wary. It will die off with time - it always does. But the conditions will work. They always do. This is not human nauter, it is animal instinct. You got burned You are watchful of fire.


Humans are built on the basis they want to trust again, but again you seem to think your own personal experiences explain Mayu's yet arguably looking holistically, when people enter a relationship and it all breaks down they generally will forgive and forget and attempt to rescue that trust they once had,,,oh no I'm exaggerating reality now aren't I,,,oops.

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
2) Kouta doesn't want to abuse Mayu. You know it. I know it. VIEWERS know it. How Mayu does it's beyond me. It's BEYOND THE SCREEN actually. You cannot tell with certainty she does. I cannot tell with certainty she does not. However, while NOT SHOWN she does it leaves me kinda stupefied as to WHY she trust him. Him being NICE won't do the trick here. Believe me it WON'T. She is not a puppy, she is 13/14 (I do not remember where her birthday was so I will just refer to her as 13 years old, /that way my 10 are not so off, it's barely 3 years not whole 4 ;P Wink/).
She should have some hesitation based on her past, and all hesitation we see she has is kinda along the lines: I do not want to stir You any trouble, becasue I am very polite. Yeah sure. Very common attitude among homeless people, politeness and not drawing attention, it works so miraculously when You want people to give You money...


Looks like you've exposed yourself,,,again. Mayu consistently quotes "These people are so kind/nice" in reference to her perspective on Kouta + Yuka. That demonstrates to me she respects his outward kindness, sure she has been hurt but she is depicted in this series from what we have observed to be a genuinely kind person herself, you get angry at her because you are a pessimist and find her actions unbelievable then you'll probably meet somebody like her one day and admire her strength won't you?

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
3) "You don't trust many people then is that a fair assumption of your character?" Is WHAT a fair assumption? That I do not trust many people? That line is like not that story, it does not fits with the rest... unless there is some background to it I failed to see... Anyway - hope for some light here Wink.


Your answers on here say alot more about yourself than the actual show you realise,,,it shows how you react to a situation and when you disagree with something that happens and you supply an answer you are sharing your own personality with us,,,since the we are discussing a trust issue and you have raised that point I merely reference your arguement to yourself,,,that was my intent.

Antihero: Tammo wrote:

Hmmm.... I think I will clear this up. My points were:
1) She is a kid (13 years), she sees a dying man (never experienced death before).
2) She is 13 she sees hell lot of blood, she probably never ever seen half of it if not less in whole life altogether. Blood is coming out at great speed from MORE THAN ONE HOLE (he had not just ONE limb torn off actually).
3) She sees TWITCHING limbs TORNED OFF and lying apart.
4) She reacts like pro medic from Emergency team with at least year of work experience. Even knows what to do in such case. Every girl her age do, sure thing.
5) While being homeless for a time she actually HAPPENS TO have clean handkerchief (clean, not dirtied!).

You chose to address:
1) She probably understands death by now
I agree, what about seeing it? Watching from so close? Watching the pain, the suffering, the blood, the severed limbs who are seemingly alive still? Because after all even if Bando was NOT dying (and I think he pretty much WAS) he still was in VERY BAD shape. No reaction to that? She came PRETTY CLOSE.


Her understanding of death was meant by a relation to her age,,,not to do with Bando,,,where young adults of age 13/14 understand the critical meaning of death, as the termination of life, a state that most human beings avoid, and that reaction would be a natural instinct to save a person who is approaching the terminatory state of life,,,explaining Mayu's reaction to aid the bastard.

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
2) All she did was torniquet his arm his arm which is common sense, there was no bandaging.
I followed Your suggestion on dictionary - thank You for link.
Torniquet - NO ENTRY FOUND. (That made me laugh quite a bit Wink - no offense but after sending me to dictionary on a word You should at least write it well... Wink ) Jokes aside, misspelling is ok, especially when writing a lot. On to business then,
Tourniquet - A device, typically a tightly encircling bandage, used to check bleeding by temporarily stopping the flow of blood through a large artery in a limb.

I think that now You Yourself see the point of HOMELESS 14 YEARS OLD LIVING ON THE STREET GIRL using such DEVICE... knowing what to do in artery case as well! And having equipment in her pocket.

On Your place I would have sticked on with bandaging, that was hard enough to explain, now You are in a tomb with THAT one... (not to mention it is kind of a bandage 'typically' as well ;P).


So I made a typo, you've made an impressive amount of grammar mistakes let's call it even eh? Smile
A tourniquet is considered a method if you check up device in the dictionary you'll find this 1. A technique or means.It more correctly suits what Mayu applied to Bando's wound since it encircled the wound, but that's just being techical Smile

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
Please address my other points.

Dirty wrote:
A cheerful person would at least laugh and says alot of positive happy descriptive things, Can you please screen capture or reference a point where Mayu is laughing?


Definition on cheerful by the dictionary You linked to earlier.

Especially check those:
Being in good spirits; merry
Reflecting willingness or good humor
Very willing; pleased: glad to help.
Bright and cheerful: a glad May morning.

She IS merry quite often. Laughing? Check out the cemetery scene with Nana. One of the few redeeming episodes. Reflecting willingness - what did she do to Bando if not WILLINGLY helped him? And so on...


Here you generalise Mayu is cheerful, I would go further to distinguish that Mayu is content for the first half of the series and is actually cheerful in the second half when she creates a new friendship bond with Nana. Reflecting willingness depends on how you contest the term, but here you're using a situation were most people would be willing to aid the person i.e. life and death. Do you think she'd be willing if Kouta said take off your clothes and do it like,,,?

Antihero: Tammo wrote:

Dirty wrote:

A more fitting description would be content rather than cheerful.

Content? Again the same dictionary, lower definition
1. Desiring no more than what one has; satisfied.
2. Ready to accept or acquiesce; willing: She was content to step down after four years as chief executive.
Are You saing she desired nothing more???? Was ready to accept anything (like returning home perhaps QuestionExclamation) ??
[/quote]

The context of contentment I am using, is Mayu's readiness to accept her current lifestyle had reached an equilibrium/stability point where by leaving home and shacking up with Wanta would do for now. Of course she desired things but these are not revealed in the show, she probably desired bathing daily but we never saw these thoughts.

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
Dirty wrote:
Where does Mayu see vectors?

Yeah ma bad, I was taking a shortcut here. I meant - the only reason for her to go there is because she sees tombs flying in the air (so to speak). Then JUST as she arrives she sees two girls and IMMEDIATELY she starts crying to them 'don't fight'. How she got that it was those two doing the ruckus I dunno, unless she analyzed the movements of tombs in 0,5 s after enetering the cemetery and seeing girls and tombs. Or perhaps seeing the vectors - hence shortcut, of course she does not see vectors. Sorry for that.


Smile

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
Still I do not agree on the below.
Quote:
When you see unusual things occuring in life like most other humans it aroses your curiosity which often overtakes your instincts of survival. Look at the Indian Ocean Tsunami disaster, I have video clips of people standing watching the waves, before being torn apart by the Tsunami,,,

You are generalizing AWFULLY and by awfully I meant it is NOT so. Curiosity MAY overcome Your instinct but saying it is so IN GENERAL is not true. And please, withstand with the Tsunami, it is sth on MUCH MUCH MORE scale. Read Thalan report on seeing the Tsunami, it's not plain curiosity there. It's shock, awe, fear which paralyzes You, hopelessness... I could go on. In Mayu's case it was like: tombs are in the air flying! Go there! She ran of course at once, and IMMEDIATELY started screaming stop this don't fight and so on (just to stop You from going to check if those were her words EXACTLY I will say again it was NOT a quote ;P Wink).


Yes the Tsunami example is generalised, here's another general example that happened here: a woman driving her car had crashed on the side of the freeway but survived and was calling her parents to say she was OK just meters from her car wreckage; she was killed instantly when two other cars approaching the crash scene had collided into her. So what is the point? Human curiosity wrecklessly is prioritised over the notion of survival, ever heard of Darwinism? In the end you found it disbelieving what she did? I thought well well here is that kind girl at it again.

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
Dirty wrote:
"Even when I'm happy, only tears come out" [quoted by a cheerful person according to Mr. Tammo].

My favorite national writer, Henryk Sienkiewicz wrote once a story about two characters being kidnapped, than (lot of adventures) than lost in the desert (famous n our country). Stan and Nel went through a LOT of hardships, seen many terrible things, and very often Nel cried. When Stan tried to do comfort her somehow, she always said it was not needed. 'But You are crying' he replied. 'It's just that my eyes are sweating' she reassured him always. That is a very brave way of cheering. She does say to him do not worry. She does say it to herself as well. I think that quote above is similar - Mayu is saying to herslef I am happy. She is ridiculing her tears. Trying to laugh it off. She tries to cheer herself up by lying. The same a s Nel. And one more thing - thare is only ONE such scene.


Sounds like a sad story, however regardless, what you are comparing the sum does not equal the parts. Nel is clearly crying because she is upset but being strong, so she won't drag Stan down with her. Mayu on the otherhand is actually feeling bittersweet, a mixture of happiness and sadness. Mayu's mind is clearly telling her she should be happy yet she doesn't feel she deserves this treatment, hence her happy tears.

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
Next part is kinda tricky, about darkness and lightness and perspective, If You mean here... leave guesses aside - WHAT You mean here?
The quote RIGHT AFTER it:
Dirty wrote:
Mixed bad or not that's your call however it is necessary that happiness aspects be included to justify the depth of the sadness.

Happiness is to JUSTIFY the amount of sadness?? eee... watch Ima Soko ni Iru Boku. Truly. Do that. And than try saying that sentence again.


What I am saying here is fundamental to anything in life and relating it to Elfen Lied. Originally you cited the movie as trying to be dark and challenged it's integrity to include a happy girl. In order to measure something we need a basis for comparison or a starting point. With Elfen Lied to give weight to the depressive mood of the series there are countering happy moods. E.g. if all you drank was water in your life, then how would you know how good an iced lemon tea drink is or how bad piss tastes? Just like if you are 6'0 tall then somebody 5'4 is shorter than you whereas to somebody 7'0 you are both short.

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
OFFTOPIC: On motivators in life
Quote:
Yes there are more I never said there were only two, read carefully.

Earlier post: there are two great motivators in life hope and fear
That sentence does not leave place for other great motivators, does it? At least that is what I understood. END OFFTOPIC


Well it is possible to add on others i.e. Love and security are another highly,,, .It may not have been the most grammatical way to write it but there are clearly plenty of motives or are you resorting to technicalities than approaching the real topic Wink

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
Dirty wrote:
It may well yes be a directing flaw or also the fact the series is limited to 13 episodes and thus an OVA for Mayu would be necessary, as a consequence we are left dabbling with the possibilities however my possibilities are noted from evidence demonstrated in the show. undoubtedly moping would have occurred and may still be occuring we are not shown this.


Your suggestions are also not shown, JUST LIKE my sick ones. Those are ONLYU possibiliteis, and You know MOPING would occured.
Why not use Ockham razor and go with the simplest explanation instead of trying to combine sth very complicated? If You need a hammer You are not going to make a robot to do the job of a hammer, but You are just taking the hammer and doing the job with it. If moping would have occured and we are not shown this why go for a hypothesis which is not shown either and say it's right one?

Your evidence so far is that she ran from home and that she has a friend in Wanta... It somehow does not convince me that she got over what happened. Wink ;P


The suggestions I have laid down are more plausible than the ones you have wildly suggested are as of course possibilities. Since we are shown a rushed portion of Mayu's past, we are not shown enough and thus come to our own conclusions and here she has taken steps to move away from moping by running away and building friendship.

Antihero: Tammo wrote:
So finally - good night to You all. Smile And see You around.


Check you later, Antihero Smile

Antihero: Kaj wrote:
Dirty: I see you mention that child abuse is not a topic to be taken lightly. But that's exactly what this anime has done - it undermined the effects of it. The way she recovers so well leads to you lot assuming that she MUST be bottling it in (whereas I'm thinking they didn't take it into account). You pick on her being a minority case, but without much supporting evidence of her being an minority case (this helped me to assume that they didn't take it into account). But if they'd wanted to REALLY wanted to condemn the kind of things that happened to Mayu, instead of just using it as a quick ticket to gain your sympathy, there COULD have more done to show the after effects on her life, or maybe how she battled to get over it. instead of piling on the fanservice.


Yes child abuse should not be taken lightly, but I am in conflict with your call the anime has taken it lightly [your perspective vs. mine]. There is no celebration or happy tone about what happened to Mayu, so I need you to elaborate your case in points about 'lightly'. Oh yes there is no doubt Mayu is bottling it in, I have never stated Mayu is a minority case,,,Who said they were condemning it? They definately portray child abuse but expressing it from the child [Mayu's] point of view in a negative light. You mention sympathy, but do you realise that is the first step towards actions like reconciliation? When you feel sympathetic that is when you actually start considering the actions that are occuring so would you like lemon and lime with your bitters? I don't consider her character completely unrealistic, which is what you and Tammo are holding hands about. Piling on the fanservice? Did you enjoy the sexual abuse from her father? I wouldn't call that fanservice but if it got you excited then well it's fanservice to you and not I.

Antihero: Kaj wrote:
PS dirty, that I was a dirty trick to use double lines to make your post seem longer Very HappyVery HappyVery Happy Only joking ofc mate.


I actually prefer double lines,,,which I think is easier to read and also a guideline for writing essays in university,,,since you have laid the hate I've gone back to single lines,,,feel the love Smile


Till next time chaps Smile

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:17 pm
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Kaj (#32327)
AnimeNfo Warrior

Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 599
Location: UK
Quote:
Yes child abuse should not be taken lightly, but I am in conflict with your call the anime has taken it lightly [your perspective vs. mine]. There is no celebration or happy tone about what happened to Mayu, so I need you to elaborate your case in points about 'lightly'.


I meant the after affects of abuse wasn't well shown.

Quote:
Oh yes there is no doubt Mayu is bottling it in, I have never stated Mayu is a minority case,,,


There is no doubt to you... I still have mine. Why that is I've already said numerous times. Can't be asked going over that ground once again.

It is true that you didn't STATE that Mayu is a minority, case, but I assumed you were implying it from the way you challenged Tammo's stats (complete with double lines Very Happy):

Quote:
I've had a quick gander at your statistics which are all fine and dandy but you have to rememeber though a statistic

might state 95% of people, how do you deal with the 5% they have to be accounted for,,,especially in the world of show business


I mean, all this time, I'm getting the impression that you/rose etc are saying that Mayu's reaction to her past is may not be a common one, but it is not an impossible one. Have I interpretted this wrong? If so would you stop making misleading statements like that... grrr...

Quote:
Who said they were condemning it?


Last exile did. Maybe you don't agree with him then Razz

Quote:
They definately portray child abuse but expressing it from the child [Mayu's] point of view in a negative light. You mention sympathy, but do you realise that is the first step towards actions like reconciliation? When you feel sympathetic that is when you actually start considering the actions that are occuring so would you like lemon and lime with your bitters?


Trying to get sympathy is all very fine. I've no problem with that on its own. But I felt cheated there wasn't much of a follow up.


Quote:
Piling on the fanservice? Did you enjoy the sexual abuse from her father? I wouldn't call that fanservice but if it got you excited then well it's fanservice to you and not I.


Oi! What makes you think I was referring to that scene as fan service? That was actually one of the few nudity scenes that I didn't consider as fan service. You seem to be saying because that particular scene wasn't fan service, therefore this anime isn't full of fanservice.

Quote:
I actually prefer double lines,,,which I think is easier to read and also a guideline for writing essays in university,,,since you have laid the hate I've gone back to single lines,,,feel the love Smile


Till next time chaps


rofl

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 2:33 pm
Last edited by Kaj (#32327) on Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger    Back to top 
Silent Blue (#71774)
AnimeNfo Peasant


Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 14
 @dirty
Man I allready liked you before, but the patience you prouved in your repllyes to Tammo makes me feel bad about getting carried away in my eralyer post to him.

@Tammo
If you want to understand the other point of view (the one in favor of Elfen Lied) and are able to put aside sarcasm and prejudice I shall gladly expose my view of the so called flaws. Smile

I apologise for beeing rude eralyer, my vectors when a little bit crazy... (and no, that massage was not the one I've promised you:
Silent Blue wrote:
I shall read everything you wrote about EL and watch the movie once more. Then I'll be coming for you my dear Thomas hopefully you'll be ready for my "vectors"


sincerely yours,
Silent Blue
that message is still pending, but I think a better way af doing this is by you to point the problem and me to look into it and explain my view)

@Caddberry
Thank you for the help in clearing a few things and for the kind welcome. I'll be nice form now on. Wink

sicerely yours,
Silent Blue

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:46 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger    Back to top 
dirty (#71854)
AnimeNfo Peasant


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 20
 Re: More Mayu!
Kaj (#32327) wrote:
I meant the after affects of abuse wasn't well shown.


Yes the show does not address the implications of sexual abuse, it is definately left to the viewer's conscience.

Kaj (#32327) wrote:
There is no doubt to you... I still have mine. Why that is I've already said numerous times. Can't be asked going over that ground once again.


As expressed prior, the show does not address this and again it is left for the viewer to hypothesize the psycho-mechanics of Mayu's mind, her trauma needs to be considered or forgotten..

Kaj (#32327) wrote:
It is true that you didn't STATE that Mayu is a minority, case, but I assumed you were implying it from the way you challenged Tammo's stats (complete with double lines Very Happy):


Oh I never implied it, remember each of us watching the show either considers Mayu believable or extraordinary, depending on where you draw that line is the side of stats she falls in.

Double lines = very sexy Smile

Kaj (#32327) wrote:
I mean, all this time, I'm getting the impression that you/rose etc are saying that Mayu's reaction to her past is may not be a common one, but it is not an impossible one. Have I interpretted this wrong? If so would you stop making misleading statements like that... grrr...


I honestly think what she is doing is quasi believable and have plausible reasons for the unaddressed aspects, afterall there are a multitude of motives and Mayu isn't exactly you.

Kaj (#32327) wrote:
Quote:
Who said they were condemning it?


Last exile did. Maybe you don't agree with him then Razz


I can't say I agree since to condemn is to pass negative judgement on the situation, we don't know the directors motives, the judgement of the morality of child abuse is passed by us the viewers and not the show. We merely are reacting to what is portrayed and there could be a person who gets off watching the child abuse scene. That person would clearly not condemn child abuse right?

Kaj (#32327) wrote:
Trying to get sympathy is all very fine. I've no problem with that on its own. But I felt cheated there wasn't much of a follow up.


Sympathy is what you felt not neccesarily a person who enjoys child abuse, who would be delighted enjoy the pain and suffering that is caused to Mayu. I wouldn't think you'd feel completely cheated Mayu started worse off than she ended up...she entered the show in a destitute fashion: unhygienic, malnourished, homeless, no 'family' or human friends and exited with a home, cooked meals, a 'family' and friends who appeared to care. Rather than focusing on the cynical aspects perhaps appreciate the brighter aspects as I did.

Kaj (#32327) wrote:
Oi! What makes you think I was referring to that scene as fan service? That was actually one of the few nudity scenes that I didn't consider as fan service. You seem to be saying because that particular scene wasn't fan service, therefore this anime isn't full of fanservice.


Ahh you mentioned the fanservice following Mayu's abuse hence I made that connection all in good humour Wink Well here's an question for you to consider: Can it really be called 'Fanservice' if the fans don't enjoy it? What is fanservice to you ain't my cuppa tea. Fanservice i've always thought is very unecessary yet very necessary if you get me. Felt the same way about Elfen's fanservice, and they could have gone for a truly madly deeply serious stance/tone like "Graveyard Of The Fireflies" by removing the 'fanservice'.

>> Silent Blue

Silent Blue (#71774) wrote:
@dirty
Man I allready liked you before, but the patience you prouved in your repllyes to Tammo makes me feel bad about getting carried away in my eralyer post to him.


Hey Bro, cheers for the love Smile My pearler for you: It's been said before but try to chill and not get too fired up, it allows you to be more objective and keeps your mind clear.

Adios munchachos all Smile

P.S. I rememeber somebody suggesting that we direct the debate more explicitly, somehow strangely their wish has come true since it's been all Mayu.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:29 pm
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Kaj (#32327)
AnimeNfo Warrior

Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 599
Location: UK
Quote:
Yes the show does not address the implications of sexual abuse, it is definately left to the viewer's conscience.

As expressed prior, the show does not address this and again it is left for the viewer to hypothesize the psycho-mechanics of Mayu's mind, her trauma needs to be considered or forgotten..



Hmmm so you interpret it as deliberately left to the viewer to guess how she just recovers. I find it easier interpret it as forgetting to address the implications. Thus EL left a impression of half-bakedness in my mind. *siiiigh* I think I've said that so many times now Confused this is getting so repetitive don't you think? Is there anything new that can be brought up?

Quote:
Oh I never implied it, remember each of us watching the show either considers Mayu believable or extraordinary, depending on where you draw that line is the side of stats she falls in.

I honestly think what she is doing is quasi believable and have plausible reasons for the unaddressed aspects, afterall there are a multitude of motives and Mayu isn't exactly you.


Yes there are several possibilities how it could turn out. Choosing a strange outcomes imo deserves some explanation. Yes, she is not me. But if I was a character that don't react to things the way that most people does, I think it would warrant some explanations at least. But I it's pointless going any further as I see we are moving in a circle - you believe that it's a natural reaction, whereas I feel it's out the norm. I have to say though, with that kind of thinking, you can probably turn just about any character into a good one by cooking up some plausible hypothesis about how they think.

Quote:
I can't say I agree since to condemn is to pass negative judgement on the situation, we don't know the directors motives, the judgement of the morality of child abuse is passed by us the viewers and not the show. We merely are reacting to what is portrayed and there could be a person who gets off watching the child abuse scene. That person would clearly not condemn child abuse right?


Okay, so there's no point arguing this further as I don't think one of the points of this anime is to condemn child abuse either... at least, if it is, it's not doing a very good job. That's what I think.

Quote:
Sympathy is what you felt not neccesarily a person who enjoys child abuse, who would be delighted enjoy the pain and suffering that is caused to Mayu.


I'm puzzled by the meaning of this sentence. Maybe you can elaborate, or phrase it in a different manner?

Quote:
I wouldn't think you'd feel completely cheated Mayu started worse off than she ended up...she entered the show in a destitute fashion: unhygienic, malnourished, homeless, no 'family' or human friends and exited with a home, cooked meals, a 'family' and friends who appeared to care. Rather than focusing on the cynical aspects perhaps appreciate the brighter aspects as I did.


The brighter aspects came off as too easy. I feel a bit cheated because of that. For example. I'd feel cheated if there was this super skilled right handed warrior. And then his right arm was cut off. Then we see him fighting again lefthanded with no difficulty just as skillfully without a mention of how. Then I'd feel cheated that the right arm getting cut off was just a cheap trick to up the excitement of the atmosphere for a moment. I hope you get my drift that the reason I feel cheated is not because I'm being cynical.

Quote:
Well here's an question for you to consider: Can it really be called 'Fanservice' if the fans don't enjoy it? What is fanservice to you ain't my cuppa tea. Fanservice i've always thought is very unecessary yet very necessary if you get me.


My answer to the first question is yes. Because the motive is still there, even if it fails. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at with the that question. Are you trying to say that there is no fanservice in EL because you didn't really enjoy it or something? Does that second statement mean that you don't think the fanservice could not have been removed because it was necessary for some people? *scratches head in puzzlement*

If they went for the grave of the fireflies format I think I would have liked it much more Razz

Oh, btw. Your light and dark theory is interesting, and I gave it some thought. My conclusion is yes, you can make an anime that seems really dark without EL's jokey way. An anime can be dark with little or no light because it's dark in comparison with real life. After all, for example, you don't have to have light and dark right next to each other in order to distinguish them. When you close your eyes, there is no light, but you know it's dark because you've seen light before. Similarly, an anime doesn't need to have light entertainment in it just to bring out the dark side, since we have seen light and dark elsewhere before and can therefore distinguish them. For example. I have seen several episodes of Galaxy Angel before. And in the episodes that I saw, there wasn't really any "darkness" in that anime at all, but I can still interpret it as light comedy show even without the darkness. So if you're trying to say that the comedy in EL is NEEDED because of the dark side, then I believe you are mistaken. If you mix light and dark in a really skillful way you could make it work, but for me EL didn't really do it for me.

Quote:
Double lines = very sexy


All I can say to that statement is bah Sad

PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:31 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger    Back to top 
dirty (#71854)
AnimeNfo Peasant


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 20
 KajRe
Firstly good afternoon all Smile

Previously, Kaj answered wrote:
Kaj (#32327) wrote:
Quote:
Yes the show does not address the implications of sexual abuse, it is definately left to the viewer's conscience.

As expressed prior, the show does not address this and again it is left for the viewer to hypothesize the psycho-mechanics of Mayu's mind, her trauma needs to be considered or forgotten..


Hmmm so you interpret it as deliberately left to the viewer to guess how she just recovers. I find it easier interpret it as forgetting to address the implications. Thus EL left a impression of half-bakedness in my mind. *siiiigh* I think I've said that so many times now Confused this is getting so repetitive don't you think? Is there anything new that can be brought up?


You said the directors forgot, here your assumption is forceful suggesting they did know about it, whereas I said it has been left to the viewers discretion, a more lenient term. This entails that it could have been overlooked by the directors or they could have deliberately omitted it. It is a far cry to cite their motives when you do not know them, but rather one should speak on the viewers end instead. Perhaps the situation again lies on parameters of the English language. What is your social context may I ask?

You've expressed your view on Mayu's character enough times and it needn't be brought up, you already addressed my statement so why did you bring it up? Confused

Previously, Kaj answered wrote:
Quote:
Oh I never implied it, remember each of us watching the show either considers Mayu believable or extraordinary, depending on where you draw that line is the side of stats she falls in.

I honestly think what she is doing is quasi believable and have plausible reasons for the unaddressed aspects, afterall there are a multitude of motives and Mayu isn't exactly you.


Yes there are several possibilities how it could turn out. Choosing a strange outcomes imo deserves some explanation. Yes, she is not me. But if I was a character that don't react to things the way that most people does, I think it would warrant some explanations at least. But I it's pointless going any further as I see we are moving in a circle - you believe that it's a natural reaction, whereas I feel it's out the norm. I have to say though, with that kind of thinking, you can probably turn just about any character into a good one by cooking up some plausible hypothesis about how they think.


Hmm it could have been stranger to me if they made Mayu a serial rapist/killer/cannibalist who targetted step fathers by raping them, then killing them, then eating them as a consequence of her trauma. Though that would be strange we would still know that something about her past made her snap and act like that. We do have a comparison point however, where Kouta like Mayu like Lucy all have had traumatic childhood experiences where Kouta 'has forgotten' which must bug you even more than Mayu? In Mayu's case she does remember,,,Lucy uses Nyuu as her emotional foil. So the directors have used different examples here.

Haha well that is a interesting observation you've made there but I can't cook sorry Smile, honestly I would have liked to know more about Mayu.

[set Topic mode = "off"]Have you seen shows like The Matrix, RahXephon and do you consider these shows half-baked? [set Topic mode = "on"]


Previously, Kaj answered wrote:
Quote:
I can't say I agree since to condemn is to pass negative judgement on the situation, we don't know the directors motives, the judgement of the morality of child abuse is passed by us the viewers and not the show. We merely are reacting to what is portrayed and there could be a person who gets off watching the child abuse scene. That person would clearly not condemn child abuse right?


Okay, so there's no point arguing this further as I don't think one of the points of this anime is to condemn child abuse either... at least, if it is, it's not doing a very good job. That's what I think.


What he said Wink

Previously, Kaj answered wrote:
Quote:
Sympathy is what you felt not neccesarily a person who enjoys child abuse, who would be delighted enjoy the pain and suffering that is caused to Mayu.


I'm puzzled by the meaning of this sentence. Maybe you can elaborate, or phrase it in a different manner?


In the above statement I made, you commented that the directors tried to get sympathy, I am merely pointing out that sympathy is what you felt for Mayu but not necessarily what another viewer may have felt. You can use an example of double line spacing which I promote and it leaves you writhing in digust, or the fact I love pineapple and it may be a shoddy fruit to you. Point in check is a person who is a step-father who sexually abuses his step daughter watching that sexual abuse scence of Mayu in Elfen Lied might in fact not feel sympathetic and instead get excited from the abuse of parental responsibility, the physical abuse of a child i.e. a masochist.

Previously, Kaj answered wrote:
Quote:
I wouldn't think you'd feel completely cheated Mayu started worse off than she ended up...she entered the show in a destitute fashion: unhygienic, malnourished, homeless, no 'family' or human friends and exited with a home, cooked meals, a 'family' and friends who appeared to care. Rather than focusing on the cynical aspects perhaps appreciate the brighter aspects as I did.


The brighter aspects came off as too easy. I feel a bit cheated because of that. For example. I'd feel cheated if there was this super skilled right handed warrior. And then his right arm was cut off. Then we see him fighting again lefthanded with no difficulty just as skillfully without a mention of how. Then I'd feel cheated that the right arm getting cut off was just a cheap trick to up the excitement of the atmosphere for a moment. I hope you get my drift that the reason I feel cheated is not because I'm being cynical.


Nice example how often do we see that in an action movie and go "What a load of BS". You are entitled to feel cheated but you made a complete oxymoron of the last statement, since you are expressing negativity, you are being cynical.

Previously, Kaj answered wrote:
Quote:
Well here's an question for you to consider: Can it really be called 'Fanservice' if the fans don't enjoy it? What is fanservice to you ain't my cuppa tea. Fanservice i've always thought is very unecessary yet very necessary if you get me.


My answer to the first question is yes. Because the motive is still there, even if it fails. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to get at with the that question. Are you trying to say that there is no fanservice in EL because you didn't really enjoy it or something? Does that second statement mean that you don't think the fanservice could not have been removed because it was necessary for some people? *scratches head in puzzlement*


I was contesting the validity of the term 'fanservice'. The second statement is a personal one i've made whilst watching shows where something is included to appeal to fans yet it's so unsuiting that it could have been left out, yet i've still enjoyed it's inclusivity. E.g. Mariko tearing apart her psuedo mum and in spite of having her torso ripped off still activating the switch. Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

Previously, Kaj answered wrote:
If they went for the grave of the fireflies format I think I would have liked it much more Razz


If they went for that approach, the tone would have been more serious and I too possibly may have enjoyed this suggested approach. As it stands Elfen Lied has been designed as a mashup of genres and that's why it appeals to a wide audience, had they gone for a truly brooding gothic tone it would have a smaller target audience than it currently does.

I digress on Grave of The Fireflies and it's serious nature denotes it has more reason to answer what I consider flaws of the movie. I enjoyed the movie nonetheless.

Previously, Kaj answered wrote:
Oh, btw. Your light and dark theory is interesting, and I gave it some thought. My conclusion is yes, you can make an anime that seems really dark without EL's jokey way. An anime can be dark with little or no light because it's dark in comparison with real life. After all, for example, you don't have to have light and dark right next to each other in order to distinguish them. When you close your eyes, there is no light, but you know it's dark because you've seen light before.


Yes an anime series can be made dark without the jokes. The original point made by Tammo was that he claims Elfen Lied was trying to be dark so why throw in a happy cheerful girl. That is where I explained this sound fact to him. Yes you need neither to distinguish because you have seen both light and dark, consider the same matter if you never saw dark and only saw light? You should re-read what I wrote or quote it to see I am starting from point 0. E.g. watched a scene where a person is drunk think about how it affects you before you started drinking and after,,,

Previously, Kaj answered wrote:
Similarly, an anime doesn't need to have light entertainment in it just to bring out the dark side, since we have seen light and dark elsewhere before and can therefore distinguish them. For example. I have seen several episodes of Galaxy Angel before. And in the episodes that I saw, there wasn't really any "darkness" in that anime at all, but I can still interpret it as light comedy show even without the darkness. So if you're trying to say that the comedy in EL is NEEDED because of the dark side, then I believe you are mistaken. If you mix light and dark in a really skillful way you could make it work, but for me EL didn't really do it for me.


Sorry but you are mistaken because I am rebutting Tammo's misconceptions, and you are making a humongously wrong assumption [you should really quote the comments in fairness Wink] that I think Elfen needed lightness in order for us the viewers to see the darkness. The approach of the movie was such that is was an emotional rollercoaster unpredictable, unrelenting,,,it could have taken the tone of a brooding, dementia, maniacal, extraordinary, gothic collaboration and that choice lied [pun unintended] with the creators and not I.

P.S. Double lines = the sex

P.P.S. What anime series do you actually consider well crafted? Since Elfen Lied isn't the dogs bollocks [that's what you call it in the UK right? Smile]


PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 6:33 am
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Kaj (#32327)
AnimeNfo Warrior

Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 599
Location: UK
Quote:
You said the directors forgot, here your assumption is forceful suggesting they did know about it, whereas I said it has been left to the viewers discretion, a more lenient term. This entails that it could have been overlooked by the directors or they could have deliberately omitted it. It is a far cry to cite their motives when you do not know them, but rather one should speak on the viewers end instead. Perhaps the situation again lies on parameters of the English language. What is your social context may I ask?


lol I meant to edit that and say forgot or overlooked the address the consequences, but I forgot lol the irony. So, the way YOU put it includes the possibility that it was over looked OR deliberately left to the viewer? I was getting the impression you were saying latter. I'd consider the former to be a flaw. And btw I didn't cite their motives, I'm guessing at them based on what I see in EL.

Quote:
You've expressed your view on Mayu's character enough times and it needn't be brought up, you already addressed my statement so why did you bring it up?


I dunno, it just sort of happened, and as I was writing it I suddenly had a feeling of deja vous:?

Quote:
Hmm it could have been stranger to me if they made Mayu a serial rapist/killer/cannibalist who targetted step fathers by raping them, then killing them, then eating them as a consequence of her trauma. Though that would be strange we would still know that something about her past made her snap and act like that.


lol if that was the case, then we'd know she's one of those dead far fetched characters, but with Mayu's current character, that is not the case. But here, it looks like they were trying to make Mayu quite an ordinary girl, and so naturally I'd try to see her in an ordinary light. Kouta's "forgetting" didn't bug me as much because it was kind of obvious that the shock just caused him to completely block off that memory. It's something that I found easier to accept because it was meant to be that way. Lucy and Nyuu was also a clear cut case what had happened. But Mayu, it wasn't so. It's possible that she just did something pretty extrodinary bottling up or it could be down to bad characterisation. I'd like to have seen more evidence if it was the former, but as it stands, I found the latter easier to believe.

Quote:
In the above statement I made, you commented that the directors tried to get sympathy, I am merely pointing out that sympathy is what you felt for Mayu but not necessarily what another viewer may have felt.


hmmm are you trying to say it's not a trick to gain our sympathy because some people will not sypathise with her with that scene?

Quote:
You are entitled to feel cheated but you made a complete oxymoron of the last statement, since you are expressing negativity, you are being cynical.


Damn you're being pedantic. lol. Let me rephrase this to try and express myself better. I was getting the impression that you saying that I'm a cynic. I was just trying to demonstrate that it was natural for me feel that way in a situation like that because there was a good reason to, not I always want to look on the bad side etc.

Quote:
I was contesting the validity of the term 'fanservice'. The second statement is a personal one i've made whilst watching shows where something is included to appeal to fans yet it's so unsuiting that it could have been left out, yet i've still enjoyed it's inclusivity. E.g. Mariko tearing apart her psuedo mum and in spite of having her torso ripped off still activating the switch.


Well, since you don't believe that the fanservice can be left off, there's no point persuing this further I guess. It's down to personal preference, but personally I think I could have lived with less panty shots and better characterisation.

Quote:
If they went for that approach, the tone would have been more serious and I too possibly may have enjoyed this suggested approach. As it stands Elfen Lied has been designed as a mashup of genres and that's why it appeals to a wide audience, had they gone for a truly brooding gothic tone it would have a smaller target audience than it currently does.


This mashup of genres... *shudders* god how I loath it. I'm surprised this clashing the of the styles haven't put many people off. I still think it's mainly the gore that makes this anime so popular. Other animes have done similar mashup of genres before with less success. Thinks about double lines... *shudders some more*.

Quote:
I digress on Grave of The Fireflies and it's serious nature denotes it has more reason to answer what I consider flaws of the movie.


Are you saying that flaws in EL are more tolerable because it's less a less serious anime?

Quote:
Yes an anime series can be made dark without the jokes. The original point made by Tammo was that he claims Elfen Lied was trying to be dark so why throw in a happy cheerful girl. That is where I explained this sound fact to him. Yes you need neither to distinguish because you have seen both light and dark, consider the same matter if you never saw dark and only saw light? You should re-read what I wrote or quote it to see I am starting from point 0. E.g. watched a scene where a person is drunk think about how it affects you before you started drinking and after,,,

Sorry but you are mistaken because I am rebutting Tammo's misconceptions, and you are making a humongously wrong assumption [you should really quote the comments in fairness Wink] that I think Elfen needed lightness in order for us the viewers to see the darkness.


I read this several times, and also re read what you said about it before, but I still don't get what it is that I assumed wrong. You said that EL needs lightness to see darkness, and I'm saying that is not true. Where did I misunderstand? I DID consider a case where I only saw light, not darkness, like you suggested. I don't see the problem.

PS I haven't seen Raxephon. The Matrix I have seen, but I don't understand it completely. Not sure whether that was cos they were trying to be really clever or just cos they haven't explained it properly. But EL I found a lot more transparent.

PPS Just watched 12 Kingdoms recently. That was pretty well crafted I thought. lol and where the hell did you manage to pick up "the dog's bollox" term?

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:33 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger    Back to top 
Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)
AnimeNfo Review Moderator

Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 1763
Location: At work. Always at work. Always at Your service.
 @ Dirty.

Hello there.

The point with You is that You seem to take my sentences apart. Not as a whole.

Like: I say anime is striving to be dark, why such happy girl.
You answer.
You just forget that earlier I said EL tries to address wide audience.
You just forget that earlier I said that EL tries to mix up humour and dark moods.
You just forget that earlier I said that EL fails at it because the mix is done incoherently, inconsistently, and that EL should learn from shows like TRIGUN to mix such stuff - in Trigun it works. I can laugh and moment after - feel the dark mood.

You answer only to one sentence. Not to whole post. You are not taking into consideration ALL the things I meant - thus the debate is getting more and more repetitive.

Best example: Mayu's homelesness. When I said I agree on ONE example of Mayu's homelesness so far- BREADSCRAP, and that the story just does not mentin it until the flashback is to come --- You wrote I made You question my brain and exposing my weaknesses because ... and listed some (7) examples starting with 4 BREADSCRAPS examples. Sorry pal, that is kinda silly. Sad BTW: When You were so nice and pointed out the times of those example please point out also the episode and time of Mayu's flashback. :-> That would do some explanations.

It also helps in arising the tense atmosphere, leading to misundestanings. Why? Because we are here focused on one topic, and while it is new for You and Silent Blue, for me and Kaj it is old. WE ARE REPETING the same arguments. You are not addressing them with ANYTHING new, if You choose to addres it AT ALL. You merely pointed out that other explanation is possible - even when less likeable. Sure it is. And? It is still less likeable. And so on. Instead of going on with that, let's try sth new.

So instead of excalating it (me trying to explain and You address sentence after sentence not taking earlier ones into accounts) let's do sth else.

Let's for example take note of Silent Blue's advice and go for other way of discussing. I will shortly point out what I disliked in Elfen Lied.

[edited part second here]
- Mayu is pointed as homeless just when the story needs it. Why? No reason. Manipulative.

I pointed it out since we talked about it for so long You could have guessed it quite well ;-P. If You want You may address it FROM THE BEGINNING. Feel what we do here.
Edited part ended

- Lucy is shown as a gray character although she is a villain. No reason for it. Manipulative.

- Dicloniuses story is incomplete, full of holes, mixed, unoriginal, and wasted in the end. It leaves You with bunch of unexplained questions.

- Kurama had the potential of fine character, however it got wasted when we see his story in full. I mean here the baby murdering.

- Mariko is a character thrown in just for Kurama and to shock the spectator. Sorry, actually she is thrown in to shock the spectator. Long Pause. And for Kurama's story. Manipulative.

- Bando. Enough said. That alone speaks volumes about Elfen Lied.

- Nyuu. I mean, fan service. Unoriginal, copied, actually copy was also made not fully.

- Love story.
a) Kouta and Yuta - straightly copied from Kono Mini, until the cemetery scene it is basically the same. Not to mention it's predictevness and typicailty. Yuta is not a decent character, she is ONLY stereotypish.
As for anime actually - it's even archetypish.
b) Kouta and Nyuu - hmmm... grown up and retarded girl... not my style. If You like such things Your tastes are wicked.
c) Kouta and Lucy. Hmmm... very well, just tell me why just after remembering the slaughter she made from his (seemingly) beloved family he is all happy to hug her?

- Kouta. He is a wooden box. He's sole purpose here is to be kond to everything and everyone. One cannot call 'robot with kindness program' a character. Wooden Box is another matter. So Wooden Box.

- Violence and nudity. They use it almost always to enhance popularity - to target mass audience. For me the rule is simple. A friend for all is a friend for none. If sth is for everybody it is for nobody. I may sound rush, but I seen many anime and I do not think that if there is ONE or TWO elements good for me than I have to watch it. I can watch some anime who are more pleasant for me.

- Shows who are meant for mass audience contains many elements popular. So does Elfen Lied. It has overused violence portrayed quite well. It has naked girls with tits shown. It has breast fondling and panties shots. It has fights scenes and super powers. It has also the nice guy gets all the girls motive. Finally it has harem comedies style (for a part) and gothic dark mood (for a part). For shows who has it all - the MERGING is done TERRIBLY or worse. IMO even some of the elements are done not well.

- While being unoriginal it is also not shown in a new way.

- Finally - Elfen Lied can be enjoyed but never in a objective way. Like Vivafruit said, it lacks substance. And while it can be enjoyed by mindless watching (whoah! another head! or hehe - nice panties! ;P JUST A JOKE) for me that means the rating will be six - MAX. I rated Elfen Lied 3.3.

Now. I hope the discussion will broaden a bit. Perhaps some fresh air will be possible now, and mood will become bright.

@ Kaj - perhaps You will add sth to the list? Or suggest some throwing out or modification?


EDITED HERE

- Sound. Except for a very good, if not great opening song Purity of the Lilies or LILUM (I'm not sure of the title) sound is at best average.

- Kouta's decision to accept people in the house are hillarious (Nyuu and Nana)

PS. I also watched at my friend once more the two episodes where Mayu's background is touched. TOUCHED not told.
It's ep 4 and 5. And those are just few minutes of each one. If told sequentially it would make half of an episode. All focuses around one bakery, bread scraps, flashback with abuse motive, Wanta's taking by this nasty girl (BTW: she said: YOUR CLOTHES ARE SO DIRTY. Yeah. Nice argument we all had here, instead stating that it was probably the subtitles. Sad) Ehhh... silly us.

@ Silent Blue. Apologies accepted.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two men were standing at a top of the mountain looking. Searching. Both were battled pretty badly, however stood with their arms still. On of them, was without helmet, blood coming down his temple said:
- Kaj, do You think we were doing this before?
- Yes Tammo. I'm pretty sure of it.
- But when? Where?
- Previous lives, maybe. Who knows. It's not important right now. How is Your head?
- A little dizzy, but I will stand. I can fight. It's simply that...
- What? /a sudden twist in Kaj's voice was noticeable, was it surprise? Uneasiness?/
- I don't want to fight. I gues I'm a bit tired. It's so much acid they are throwing at us.
- You make it sound like we are all on defense, without throwing anything back - muttered Kaj reasonably.
- I guess... we can.. try.. to ... negotiate? Instead of fighting?
- I AM NOT SAYING THAT ELFEN LIED IS GREATEST EVER. Hell, I will even not name it great. Mediocre, perhaps. May be.
- Hell I am not doing it either, but... You know Kaj, perhaps if we could negotiate there would be less tiring.
- Hmmm... naah. They are here for our blood, Tammo. Nothing less will satisfy them. Notice how Silent Blue came at You, notice how Dirty shruggs off what You throw at him instead with his dirty manuvers comes even closer. Yeah, Silent Blue apologised, but who knows what's in his head... - Kaj meaningfully nodded his head several times, for a moment both men were standing, looking for any dangers, back to back, supporting each other. Finally Tammo spoke again:
- And if we could find some bond?
- What bond?
- Bond we all are sharing. That would make them realize we have something in common, so perhaps fights are not necessary.
- Like?
- Uhh... I don't know... ha! got one! ANIME!
- Ugh... Tammo, I think they know You and I like anime.
- Yeah, that's probably correct. So, perhaps, anime we all like?
- That's better... hmmm... what it could be? Let's ask them their favorite anime and.. - Kaj suddenly paused.
- Yeah, they will name Elfen Lied and everything goes to hell again, no. Bad idea. You name other anime... hell I know. You will name Crest of the Stars or Banner I/II of the Stars. - Tammo smiled broadly while saying that. Kaj smirked a bit and twisted face, while jokingly stating:
- Naah. You got it wrong. I would have named...
- Last Exile?! - Tammo burst out to laughter.
- If You are so clever than name one Yourself - of course other than Rurouni Kenshin!
- Rurouni... oh... damn you... Ghos...
- Not Ghost either. Huh! Busted as well. Anyway, whatever anime You will name, what will it bring? Other than being off topic in Elfen Lied's Arena? The (q)forum /Wink I know the spelling's wrong, go on with the story people/ is not into such stuff. So?
- I was thinking into manipulating them to like us.
- Like us?
- Yes, feel we are nice, good fellows who are right, and thus modify their behavior. Than perhaps the friendly atmosphere will be back and...
- You will be writing another side story like this one?
- How did You noticed?!! It was a perfect script!!
- I never speak so much lines without irony. Razz
- oh damn! I forgot!!
- Heh... anyway... that manipulation can be succesfull and even would be nice unless.. You... You didn't did You?!
- I did ... what?
- You did NOT put that into forum!! DID YOU??!!
- ehh.. Kaj.. You know... it HURTS!!! STOP STRUGGLING ME!!! ARGHHH...
*** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** *** ***
Few hours later they still argued...
Until finally ... decided to named all anime they liked. Razz

So - without noticing that stunning use of manipulation techniques You are from now on to say You like us. Wink And quickly Wink name Your words on such anime as Last Exile, Crest/Banners of the Star, Ghist in the Shell, Rurouni Kenshin Reminiscence...
What a stunning... silence... /me thinks it's time to check if I actually HAD put this short story ON THIS VERY FORUM... goes check/
_________________
Tammo (aka Thomas)
STH = SomeTHing POV = Point Of View
-------GO---------------------READ -----------------------THOSE--------------------NOW------------
Useful Info ** Moderating related stuff ** My anime opinions ** Adorable quotes

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 4:43 pm
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Kaj (#32327)
AnimeNfo Warrior

Joined: 14 Jan 2004
Posts: 599
Location: UK
Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694) wrote:


@ Kaj - perhaps You will add sth to the list? Or suggest some throwing out or modification?



*long sigh* Not sure if I can be arsed lol. I would only be repeating my initial long post again. I'm tired of going around in circles on this debate with more important things I need to do in life. But for some reason I just can't stay away from this uber stale debate, and that's driving me insane. Gaaaah. Maybe I'll go psycho soon and start killing everyone with vectors Razz

PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:56 pm
  View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger    Back to top 
Joshua (#55329)
AnimeNfo Peasant

Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 82
 Thomas I am sorry that i'm taking so long to get back to you but I have been sick for the the past few days.

Quote:
Quote:
1. The diclonious appeared through evolution.

And their discovery?


1.) It doesn't say were they were discovered at if that is what you mean, but does that really need to be known?

Quote:
Quote:

5.)The thing about it is that Lucy is the first one that they ever caught and after that more of them were popping up but they don't know that for certain that only happned in Lucy's case. But she is the only one they have to confirm this since all the rest were taken and if they didn't have the hereditary chromosoime then they were killed. How do you want them to act really when they are born they are practically tortured with all of those test that they run. In Nana's case she was given father figure and someone who she can look to for strenght and the others didn't have that but then again none of them had a chance.

Here You got off track a bit. Those experimented were suggested BECAUSE they were supposed to be so evil. BECAUSE they were so evil and bad such experiments were ok. EARLIER they are bad, THAN we have experiments and THAN we have Nana being so nice although she is badly beaten and practically toyed with.

I would not say Lucy is the first one. There are reports on accidents before, we can conclude that from some talks Kurama has in his flashbacks.
That sentence I do not understand:


Yes the diclonious are suppose to be so bad and evil but that is only because what lucy had done. Before Lucy had got caught she was killing people and that is how the diclonious as a species had got the rep. Lucy is not the first diclonious but she is the first that they have caught. The other 3 female diclonious that were shown were created from the virus.

As far as those flash backs kuramo has that doesn't mean Lucy wasn't the first discovered because Lucy was their before he even got on board.

Lucy and Nana are 2 completely different characters. Yes Lucy was akiller and murderer but people really don't know if that is how all diclonious act. Lucy did what she did and since she was the first she was classified with those titles as murderer, and killer. So because of her actions all diclonious were labeled that way. The diclonious fell victim to a stereotype just like socierty sometimes do with a race of people they say black people do this, and white people do that, etc. So is it not possible that the same thing happened here. Yes both are diclonious but Nana is not Lucy she is an individual. Nana gained strength in Kuramo and that is not hard to swallow since people sometimes will excel with support and sometimes the people you meet change your life, do they not?

Quote:
Quote:
The scientist were only used one diclonious to classify them all but that was only to fullfill the Chiefs on purposes of re creating the world. We as people some time stereotype and that was the case here.

Scientist were using one diclonius to classify the species? Yes? And that was to help Chief to rule the world? I still don't get it. Please explain.



The fact the scientist only used one diclonious to stereotype the diclonious although after re reading my post i can see how it looks that way. The Chief wanted to wipe out the human race and he just wanted their to be diclonious. I think the whole thing about stereotypes and all that I explained in the question before this but if need be I will go deeper. Why the Chief wants to do this I don't know? I'm happy with the reasoning that he is crazy.

Quote:
You have a twin Joshua? What's his name? HAve Your parents any trouble with differing You? Like who's who?


Yes i do have a twin we are identical. his name is Jonathan and yes my real name is Joshua, we are 2 minutes apart and I came out first. My mother can tell us apart very easily because she knows our personalities so well their is no fooling her. My daddy on the other hand is another story he still gets confused sometimes.

Quote:
Let's take Your reasoning to a test.
Evolution creates diclonius first generationg (1GD for short). You say - it is Lucy, the Queen. Than 2 GD appeared... also on evolution's whim. Like Nana, or some others in the facility. After it some more dicloniuses were born, due to virus being spread. Like Mariko. Those are 3 GD.

You see, here is the tricky part. Evolution uses different pattern. First exemplum is a prototype. It works, another one appears, slightly modified, made a bit better. And another, better made, and so on and so on. In this case Your reasoning still does not answer those questions:
1) Why evolution decided to develop new feature out of humans, instead of making old ones better?
2) Why evolution suddenly came up with vectors? In our society and life-style vecotrs are not that usable. Evolution makes dominating parts better, or develops some features who makes Your survival rates and comfort-lives abilities higher and better.
3) Why second and third generaton is WORSE than first?
4) Why second generation is not born out of first??
5) Why first is so limited?
6) What with male dicloniuses - are they generation 0?
7) Why for them evolution had no vectors planned? Why only females got vectors? There MUST be some reason - in such cases evolution does not play random shots.
And so on...


OMG all of these questions are just blowing me away right now if you only knew.
Well I hope this is okay with you but I am going to sum up all your questions in one big statement because i think they all tie in together.

1.) & 2.) Thomas i am sorry but unfortunately for you evolution isn't a person so we can't ask it why it does the things it does. Why do diclonious exist? No one knows they just do. I know this sounds very bad but that is the truth. Is their an explanation why they would be needed no I don't see one.

3.) Thomas what do you mean by worse? As the generations pass the diclonious have more vectors because Lucy has the least then it is Nana then Mariko has the most. Lucy has 4, Nana said that she had more than 4 because she said she was using them to control her artificial limbs so that has to be mre than 4 and then Mariko. Then Nana's Vectors are longer. More so the others do have advantages over Lucy but in Nanas case that didn't matter because Lucy is more ruthless. Besides it is all about how you use what you got and the way Lucy used what she had is what made her so dangerous and I'm sure had the most experience in killing not to say at some point those advantages don't help out.

4. I don't know what you mean.

5.) limited compared to what? Diclonious are the evolution of humans so technically they aren't limited. compared to the 2nd and 3rd yes but that is because they are evolving but all because one evolves that doesn't mean that they can physically beat the other as Lucy has proven with her fight with Nana.

6 & 7.) I don't know. This is a mystery because no one explained this although I do have a theory. I think those 2 are not legit diclonious that were shown the Chief and his son. I think through science they made themselves that way to breed with Lucy. I don't think evolution had anything to do with them I just see two people who are trying to play God. The Chief is so old but he knows nothing about the origin, neither does his son. If the Chief was a diclonious from the start why wait until Lucy appear to start his research because obviously he has the money. All the diclonious that have been born that they showed have all had pink hair and red eyes and lets not forget the horns so why don't either of them have the pink hair and red eyes also makes me think they performed experiments on themselves. i don't know this for a fact but from what has been given this is what i can conclude.

Well their you have it Thomas. I hope you are well because it is taking you a while to get back to the post concerning the chracters unless I missed it somehow. I have made my move so hit me.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:20 am
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
dirty (#71854)
AnimeNfo Peasant


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 20
battler.tammo wrote:
@ Dirty.

Hello there.

The point with You is that You seem to take my sentences apart. Not as a whole.

Like: I say anime is striving to be dark, why such happy girl.
You answer.
You just forget that earlier I said EL tries to address wide audience.
You just forget that earlier I said that EL tries to mix up humour and dark moods.
You just forget that earlier I said that EL fails at it because the mix is done incoherently, inconsistently, and that EL should learn from shows like TRIGUN to mix such stuff - in Trigun it works. I can laugh and moment after - feel the dark mood.

You answer only to one sentence. Not to whole post. You are not taking into consideration ALL the things I meant - thus the debate is getting more and more repetitive.


Howdy Smile

Since when have I forgotten? I am addressing your sentences in the same manner that you address mine. Here is your original statement
battler.tammo wrote:
You know - if anime strives to be dark, when it touches so severe topics like child abuse... then why the hell they make this girl so damn happy? Why is she smiling all the time? She does not know where to sleep. She does not know what to eat. She has PLENTY of worries and she is (THAT"S THE DEAL PEOPLE) 10 years old. What wilpower does she have? She should be affected by her past - she clearly is not. I would tell You first this IS a character with substance IF she would not have that past. Why? It would make her more real for me.

Where is this wide audience part?

I've been saying it all along that EL has been mixing up happy and dark moods,,,i've made it very evident in my posts,,,however you appear to have answered

You haven't stated here that the mix is incoherent and inconsistent but again that is your opinion and if you look at the statistic above most people disagree with you. So Elfen should try to be more like Trigun? I haven't seen this show and style is down to taste.

You make the connection here with comparing the holistic view of EL and the specific motivations of Mayu, in your quote you are questioning why Mayu acts the way she does yet your intepretation of Mayu differs from the majority you even think she's 10.

battler.tammo wrote:

Best example: Mayu's homelesness. When I said I agree on ONE example of Mayu's homelesness so far- BREADSCRAP, and that the story just does not mentin it until the flashback is to come --- You wrote I made You question my brain and exposing my weaknesses because ... and listed some (7) examples starting with 4 BREADSCRAPS examples. Sorry pal, that is kinda silly. Sad BTW: When You were so nice and pointed out the times of those example please point out also the episode and time of Mayu's flashback. :-> That would do some explanations.


Most people that I have spoken to that have seen EL agree they are able to work out she is homeless if you follow the clues, yet you are dead set on disagreeing with the evidence i've laid down I'll post it again.
dirty.mayu.homeless.evidence wrote:
Episode 4, 06:52. Focus on Mayu's bag of breadscraps, Mayu hides the bag, runs away << Why is she embarrased, I wonder? Cause she's homeless
Episode 4, 07:41. Mayu clearly seen munching on scraps of bread << After saying they were for Wanta, she lied, why? Cause she's homeless
Episode 4, 13:03. The shopkeeper says to Yuka "although she comes everyday, she's always wearing the same clothes, the other shopkeepers say she's homeless." << Enough said.
Episode 4, 15:14. Kouta picks up Mayu from hospital and questions why she left his number rather than her families, why? Cause she's homeless
Episode 4, 16:49. [Mayu Quote]"It's delicious", Mayu blushes while saying this << Looks like she hasn't had real food in awhile, since everybody has astonished faces, why? Cause she's homeless
Episode 4, 17:31. [Mayu Quote]"Having a bath, I wonder how long it's been,,," << Homeless perhaps??? Cause she's homeless
Episode 4, 17:51. Yuka + Kouta discuss the possibility that Mayu may be homeless << Seems like they have more of a clue than you do?

Epsiode 5, 03:58. THE INFAMOUS FLASHBACK SCENE BEGINS.


The first two deal with breadscraps yes but they both infer different meanings not just the fact they are breadscraps. Point 1: Mayu is embarrased to be seen with breadscraps. Point 2: she is munching on breadscraps after claiming they were all for Wanta. Point 3. is NOT about breadscraps but an observation and comment by other shopkeepers. Point 4. has nothing to do with breadscraps,,,so what are you saying?

Perhaps it is fair to say that you are not the most observant person afterall you did think Mayu was 10 when she is in fact 13/14 and you also thought she could see vectors?

battler.tammo wrote:
It also helps in arising the tense atmosphere, leading to misundestanings. Why? Because we are here focused on one topic, and while it is new for You and Silent Blue, for me and Kaj it is old. WE ARE REPETING the same arguments. You are not addressing them with ANYTHING new, if You choose to addres it AT ALL. You merely pointed out that other explanation is possible - even when less likeable. Sure it is. And? It is still less likeable. And so on. Instead of going on with that, let's try sth new.

So instead of excalating it (me trying to explain and You address sentence after sentence not taking earlier ones into accounts) let's do sth else.


The atmosphere is honestly not tense for me but you claim it is so, misunderstandings happen yes but through communication we resolve them. Well if you don't want to reply you can do so, rather than claim the same arguements are being repeated, it's because you are making the same accusations over and over again that you are repeating yourself think about it. If you came up with new material then I'm all for it. I've rebutted what you've put up yet you claim I don't address the issue, would you like lemon lime with your bitters? Wink I think your explanations are less likeable and i've supported it with some evidence in EL that they are more probable than yours but again it's opinion.

You can divert over to what SilentBlue is that's fine, but that's a conversation with you and him, and you've left me behind, come back Tammo Sad

I will say I am rather dissapointed in how you've chosen to deal with the matter, in attempting to divert the subject matter, while I have taken the patience to rebutt your replies, you have chosen to not even quote and instead write an aimless anecdote, truly a lack of respect. In coming here and declaring yourself part of the Anti Elfen Lied Fan Club whether in jest or in conviction you have attempted to stir many, but now you leave yourself shaken.

Adios soldier Smile

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:31 am
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Thomas(akaTammo) (#57694)
AnimeNfo Review Moderator

Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 1763
Location: At work. Always at work. Always at Your service.
 Dirty - read my WHOLE posts and read them all here. I made plenty of them here. And then start telling me You are addresing my whole points.

Cause You clearly are not. You are leaving some of them behind, You are taking some of them apart from others.

And I ask You - state Your reasoning for Mayu being decent character. State what makes her such character, for You. I will adress it then. Because I have addressed every point You have made. You have not do so with mine.

Quote:

I've been saying it all along that EL has been mixing up happy and dark moods,,,i've made it very evident in my posts,,,however you appear to have answered

Exlpain this sentence please, I don't have a clue what You are hinting here at, and I do want to answer, but not to guess meaning and THEN answer.

Quote:

You haven't stated here that the mix is incoherent and inconsistent but again that is your opinion and if you look at the statistic above most people disagree with you. So Elfen should try to be more like Trigun? I haven't seen this show and style is down to taste.


I haven't stated it, but it is my opinion?
Again I think You have made unclear point, so please explain. State it more clearly.
The statistic above, You mean? And what does it has to do with moods?
Have we here a statistic on dark moods and humour in EL?? Dirty, what are You EXACTLY saying?
Also Your point about EL and Trigun is somewhat unclear, specify it.

Hmmm... last sentence is somewhat clear to me. You are saying that whether EL has mixes humour and dark mood bad or not it is down to Your taste. Well - yes it is.


Quote:

You make the connection here with comparing the holistic view of EL and the specific motivations of Mayu, in your quote you are questioning why Mayu acts the way she does yet your intepretation of Mayu differs from the majority you even think she's 10.


????? I made such connection? My my... what can one learn about himself. Smile Hmmm Dirty. READ AGAIN. About thinking she is 10, are You going to state it in every post of Yours? Even when most of my arguments are not based on her age but her behavior and things she says, or how she looks? Even when I honestly admitted my mistake to her age long ago? How long are You going to stick to that one mistake, man... - THAT IS BEING REPETITIVE.

And if my interpretation of Mayu differs from majority then what? You are again not making ANY point here.

I think You have messed up that paragraph pretty badly. Your point got lost somewhere, so I cannot clearly address it, and I do not want to guess.

I have to go now, so I hope You will set those matters clear. If You do, than we can talk about me addressing them.

I have never had earlier such problems in 'communications' Dirty, like You put it. And for You perhaps the atmosphere is not tense, but Silent Blue earlier exploded - that is what You call discussing in nice atmosphere? But perhaps You omitted it. Perhaps You did not notice. I do not think that it was 'nice' behaviour. Attack was, after all, not pointed at You. Hence 'nice atmosphere'. Well, nice thinking Dirty, if so. With earlier debaters we never had such problems. With everyone in those forums with Your notable exception neither Kaj nor me had no such problem with 'clear the matter please'. So I do not think that I'm twisting anyone's words. I rather think You are very vague with Your points. So please, state them down. Right after You do it, and state them down so that meaning is obvious, I will address them. I'm not fond of guessing, when right after that meaning changes a bit. See You all later.

EDITED PART HERE
@ Joshua... I thought for a moment You won't come. Sorry for doubting You /me is very abashed for doing so/. Very Happy I WILL GLADLY ADRESS ANY POINTS YOU HAVE MADE.... but rather not now - classes are ahead of me.
_________________
Tammo (aka Thomas)
STH = SomeTHing POV = Point Of View
-------GO---------------------READ -----------------------THOSE--------------------NOW------------
Useful Info ** Moderating related stuff ** My anime opinions ** Adorable quotes

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:06 am
  View user's profile Send private message    Back to top 
Tritonus (#1494)
AnimeNfo Peasant


Joined: 27 Apr 2002
Posts: 12
 Could someone explain if the two little dicloniuses are Lucy and Nana?

The one the cops nail down outside the apartment and the one who infects Kurama and is being killed off? Or is it the same one? Because they look kinda dead

PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:48 am
  View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger    Back to top 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 4 of 9 [393 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topicView next topic
 Forum index » Anime Series Discussion Forum » Elfen Lied
Jump to:  


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Swift Communications | Swords

[ Time: 1.0165s ][ Queries: 14 (0.0091s) ][ GZIP on - Debug on ]